[jmills8]

From what I gather the scoring really has been purely on technical performance that gets to as reference or neutral sounding as possible. At least from the comparison between the Dream and Vega, although the Dream is presented as more detailed and spacious, the Vega still sounds like the more enjoyable IEM to listen to, least for my tastes.

Just wondering if it will continue in this direction towards the end, with the #1 being the most technically superior IEM but perhaps the most boring or least musical one to listen to as well.

This isn't a criticism at all... it seems to br the only way to handle scoring these without being biased, as musicality and enjoyability are of course variable and subjective. And sure you can argue that the most neutral sound is what some enjoy most... But you get the point.

So moving to the DX200 direction ?

 

[Wyville]

Prolly alive due to stellar technicalities. I'd be very surprised if Warbler manages to beat the Zeus but the way things are going, it's a real possibility.

I did not include the Warbler in my predictions and I still have 4 out of 5 in the running, but I am starting to root for the Warbler just for the fact that it is so nice to see a single BA driver compete so well in one of the toughest shootouts imaginable. Just goes to show how divergent the paths towards technical innovation can be!

 

[ranfan]

Warbler right now.​

 

[flinkenick]

From what I gather the scoring really has been purely on technical performance that gets to as reference or neutral sounding as possible. At least from the comparison between the Dream and Vega, although the Dream is presented as more detailed and spacious, the Vega still sounds like the more enjoyable IEM to listen to, least for my tastes.

Just wondering if it will continue in this direction towards the end, with the #1 being the most technically superior IEM but perhaps the most boring or least musical one to listen to as well.

This isn't a criticism at all... it seems to br the only way to handle scoring these without being biased, as musicality and enjoyability are of course variable and subjective. And sure you can argue that the most neutral sound is what some enjoy most... But you get the point.

To be honest, I find this very disappointing to read. Normally if a post or review of mine is misinterpreted, I am mature enough to re-examine what I have written as I probably didn't explain something well enough, and will change something accordingly.

In this case, I have written an 8 page introduction going into great detail how I score. It emphasises that both performance and signature are equally important and scored as such, while going into detail how a signature is rated with a heavy emphasis on timbre. For instance concerning the upper midrange:

It’s also a crucial area for determining the general tone, and the timbre of instruments. The scoring of the upper midrange primarily reflects the tone, which should be slightly warm to sound accurate; but also the smoothness and instrument size.

And the treble:

The two key aspects here are its tonal accuracy and smoothness. Similar to the upper midrange, a treble should be slightly warmer in tone to sound accurate. Generally speaking, this results from attenuating the lower treble region.

In both cases, this is quite literally the opposite of a reference tuning, especially considering a reference tuning has a lift in its lower treble. However, they might have the advantage of being more precise.

What's more, in the reviews I've gone into great lengths to not only describe when a tone is accurate, but exactly which combination of frequencies results in a more natural signature or midrange/treble tone, while scoring aspects of those signatures or their tonality higher; for instance in the cases of Deca and Aether. The Dream's signature scores on the other hand are only average, but it has a very nice stage and separation.

I'm pretty sure I have given it my all to be very clear how I score, and how important signature is. Especially naturalness is a very important construct for me. So I cannot for the love of god understand how you would come to such a conclusion. Even so, out of the 8 remaining there are only 2 reference iems left: the A18 and Samba. So I'm not even sure how this shootout can continue preferring iems that classify as 'boring' or 'less musical'.

 

[proedros]

well people are bound to misintepretations , don't sweat it

already looking forward to number 8

 

[crinacle]

Even so, out of the 8 remaining there are only 2 reference iems left: the A18 and Samba.

Any reason why the UE18+ isn't reference to you? I find it a worthy successor to the UERM. (And what the UERR should have been.)

 

[flinkenick]

Any reason why the UE18+ isn't reference to you? I find it a worthy successor to the UERM. (And what the UERR should have been.)

Well the term reference has different meanings. Traditionally, it might have referred to a neutral signature with an emphasis on accurate timbre. For instance, the '5-Way Reference'. However, I think that nowadays from a manufacturers' perspective reference refers to a specific type of signature with a focus on precision. This almost always has a dominating lift in the 5-7 KHz region. For instance: Galaxy, Dream, Katana, A18, Samba.

So it depends on how you interpret the term reference. In the case of UE18+, it has a warmer than neutral and very natural signature, with excellent timbre; which arises as a result of a lower treble dip. So this would fit the traditional perspective, but clash with the latter, which would be my interpretation of 'reference'.

 

[fuhransahis]

Well the term reference has different meanings. Traditionally, it might have referred to a neutral signature with an emphasis on accurate timbre. For instance, the '5-Way Reference'. However, I think that nowadays from a manufacturers' perspective reference refers to a specific type of signature with a focus on precision. This almost always has a dominating lift in the 5-7 KHz region. For instance: Galaxy, Dream, Katana, A18, Samba.

So it depends on how you interpret the term reference. In the case of UE18+, it has a warmer than neutral and very natural signature, with excellent timbre; which arises as a result of a lower treble dip. So this would fit the traditional perspective, but clash with the latter, which would be my interpretation of 'reference'.

Apologies for the misinterpretation. Please keep in mind that I am new to this hobby, so I am also not yet fully familiar with all of the terminology used within your reviews and your scoring methodology. And to be honest because of that and the length of the scoring description, it went a little over my head, so I perhaps (or rather clearly didn't) understand how you go into scoring as objectively as possible while also judging signature accurately.

And again, it wasn't meant as an offense - though I misunderstood, I thought scoring them nearly solely on performance might have been a way to keep it as objective as possible. And from my own dabbling in the threads of various different TOTL IEMs, I have found many, many nembers whose preferences do in fact tend to hold a reference or neutral tuning (whatever that may truly mean) in the highest regard, while there are plenty of others who don't, so to each his own. There are variances in what is considered musical or reference and so on, so everything varies everywhere to at least some degree.

At the end of the day please don't take my impression to heart, I'm still new and trying to make sense of all of this terminology, and am very much enjoying your reviews and learning as much as I can about them.

 

[fuhransahis]

So moving to the DX200 direction ?

Yeah, exactly. In this case it's what I wanted - keep the Vega's signature intact while giving it more power than most DAPs.

Plus the amp section is upgradeable in case I want to slightly color the sound in one way or another at some point.

 

[flinkenick]

Apologies for the misinterpretation. Please keep in mind that I am new to this hobby, so I am also not yet fully familiar with all of the terminology used within your reviews and your scoring methodology. And to be honest because of that and the length of the scoring description, it went a little over my head, so I perhaps (or rather clearly didn't) understand how you go into scoring as objectively as possible while also judging signature accurately.

And again, it wasn't meant as an offense - though I misunderstood, I thought scoring them nearly solely on performance might have been a way to keep it as objective as possible. And from my own dabbling in the threads of various different TOTL IEMs, I have found many, many nembers whose preferences do in fact tend to hold a reference or neutral tuning (whatever that may truly mean) in the highest regard, while there are plenty of others who don't, so to each his own. There are variances in what is considered musical or reference and so on, so everything varies everywhere to at least some degree.

At the end of the day please don't take my impression to heart, I'm still new and trying to make sense of all of this terminology, and am very much enjoying your reviews and learning as much as I can about them.

I'm sorry for coming across harsh, I guess I didn't know where you were coming from either. The reason I responded is that such a post creates ambiguity over the context of the scoring, so I felt the need to correct it.

I'll try to put it more in perspective. Right now you are enjoying Vega. Vega is a very unique iem because of the signature that results from the quantity of its bass. It sounds thick, powerful, and can be considered very engaging. However, it is also one of the most coloured signatures. As a result, it will always be very polarizing: some people feel it should be top 5, others at the bottom. But there's no doubt it can be considered a 'musical' signature. However, I can't judge iems based on musicality, because that only relies on subjective preference.

For instance, another example of a very different 'musical' iem is the NT6pro. Neither Vega nor NT6pro have a particularly accurate timbre, but are both very enjoyable. Therefore, they have a similar average signature score. However, the NT6pro is just a bit more precise overall, which is why it has a higher rank. However, there will also be iems with high signature scores and only average technical scores, and finally, iems with both.

I guess what I am trying to say is you are right that reference iems score high when it comes to performance; however technical performance does not automatically exclude a natural, fun, or 'musical' signature, rather we would like to see both.

 

[theveterans]

I'm sorry for coming across harsh, I guess I didn't know where you were coming from either. The reason I responded is that such a post creates ambiguity over the context of the scoring, so I felt the need to correct it.

I'll try to put it more in perspective. Right now you are enjoying Vega. Vega is a very unique iem because of the signature that results from the quantity of its bass. It sounds thick, powerful, and can be considered very engaging. However, it is also one of the most coloured signatures. As a result, it will always be very polarizing: some people feel it should be top 5, others at the bottom. But there's no doubt it can be considered a 'musical' signature. However, I can't judge iems based on musicality, because that only relies on subjective preference.

For instance, another example of a very different 'musical' iem is the NT6pro. Neither Vega nor NT6pro have a particularly accurate timbre, but are both very enjoyable. Therefore, they have a similar average signature score. However, the NT6pro is just a bit more precise overall, which is why it has a higher rank. However, there will also be iems with high signature scores and only average technical scores, and finally, iems with both.

I guess what I am trying to say is you are right that reference iems score high when it comes to performance; however technical performance does not automatically exclude a natural, fun, or 'musical' signature, rather we would like to see both!

To my ears, Vega is fairly neutral and uncolored in the mids and treble and tonality is close to my HS7 as reference. It's only in bass region (20 - 150Hz) region where it sounds colored, but IMO Vega does the best bass boost effect I've heard in any of my IEM. I find that some of the IEMs with BA, the tonality in the mids and treble are much more colored than the mids and treble from Vega.

 

[flinkenick]

To my ears, Vega is fairly neutral and uncolored in the mids and treble and tonality is close to my HS7 as reference. It's only in bass region (20 - 150Hz) region where it sounds colored, but IMO Vega does the best bass boost effect I've heard in any of my IEM. I find that some of the IEMs with BA, the tonality in the mids and treble are much more colored than the mids and treble from Vega.

Yes you are right that Vega has a very neutral midrange and treble tone. However, neutral tone is not the same as having an accurate timbre. As for its bass quantity, it is prob the largest I have personally heard in an iem. As a result, it colors the presentation as a whole, which I definitely would not describe as neutral.

 

[Asspirin]

I found not only Vega's bass far from "reference", but also the treble. All Campfire IEMs have that typical "Campfire treatment" for the treble. A certain dip in the sibilance region to make things smoother, but the treble is forward and detailed at the same time. Really peculiar, but I like it.

I hope one day I'll have the opportunity to listen to all the other stuff in the shootout, seems there is a lot of good stuff out there that could catch my interest

 

[proedros]

i am very glad we have Nic around , imagine the hypefest if all we had were biased fanboys and people who have only heard 2 TOTL ciems in their lives....a nightmare (for our wallets)

keep up the amazing work Nic

 

[EagleWings]

@fuhransahis, it's just one of the misconceptions when we are new to this hobby. But technicality does not equal neutrality/reference/clinical. A couple of IEMs that have already been ranked in this shootout, are more clinical than a couple of IEMs that are yet to be ranked.

Another good example is comparing the 64Audio U12 and the Etymotic ER-4S. U12 is both technically better, as well as more fun, than the ER-4S.