Finding a DAC for the Cavalli Liquid Carbon. Only Four Months to Go.

[digitalzed]

  I'm going to be using my new Geek Pulse X Infinity as the DAC with my LC. We'll see how the amp inside the Pulse fares against Alex's magic in the LC!

I'm going to be doing the same thing. Also very interested to hear the difference.

 

[Stillhart]

  Yes! Got it in the original chassis, and it's a few days burned-in. Sounding really good. Just need a good balanced cable now. Will be getting my Moon Silver Dragon V3 reterminated to 4-pin XLR. I also have a Norne 4-pin XLR to 2.5mm TRRS adapter on order so I can listen to my K10's using my balanced ALO cable that I use with the CDM. 
 
Really good stuff so far. 

 
You got the CDM too?  Dang, dude, nice setup!  Are you going to RMAF Canjam in Oct?  

 

I bounced back and forth for a day. The bass depth, definition and extension of the DAC-19, plus the tone and timbre improvement over the HA-1 won me over. I don't think the HA-1 is bright, so much as it lacks bass, and has a kind of artificial and brittle treble. It has better or exaggerated detail retrieval as compared to the DAC-19. I don't dislike the HA-1 dac but I do like the DAC-19 better. I kind of wonder how much of the DAC-19 sound is accurate reproduction and how much is DSP providing a desired signature.
The HA-1 amp section is excellent IMHO.

 
The DAC-19 is my third "budget" R2R DAC, the others being the Theta Basic II and Adcom GDA-600.  All three use different chips, different filters and even different topologies.  One thing they all have in common is that more accurate timbre with thicker bass and less artificial treble.  In fact, the DAC-19 and Theta Basic II sound surprisingly similar (when both used in SE mode) even though they were built 20 years apart.
 
I know some folks will preach that the DSP makes more difference than the actual chip in an R2R DAC.  But the differences in sound you're pointing out are similar across all R2R that I've heard.

 

[jjacq]

   
You got the CDM too?  Dang, dude, nice setup!  Are you going to RMAF Canjam in Oct?  

 
 
The DAC-19 is my third "budget" R2R DAC, the others being the Theta Basic II and Adcom GDA-600.  All three use different chips, different filters and even different topologies.  One thing they all have in common is that more accurate timbre with thicker bass and less artificial treble.  In fact, the DAC-19 and Theta Basic II sound surprisingly similar (when both used in SE mode) even though they were built 20 years apart.
 
I know some folks will preach that the DSP makes more difference than the actual chip in an R2R DAC.  But the differences in sound you're pointing out are similar across all R2R that I've heard.

 
Off topic but is there any way you can compare the three DACs? Maybe you can PM?

 

[Stillhart]

   
Off topic but is there any way you can compare the three DACs? Maybe you can PM?

 
In a thread about DAC's, I wouldn't think it's too off topic.  I've done plenty of comparisons of the DAC-19 and Theta Basic II in other threads.  The short version is this:
 
My Theta is balanced and the DAC-19 is SE.  When using them both in SE mode, I'm not sure that I'd be able to pick them apart in a blind test, that's how close their sounds are.  Balanced, the Theta pulls ahead a bit in soundstage/separation/imaging as you might expect.  
 
Picking one over the other comes down to price vs warranty/dependability/convenience.  The Theta is significantly cheaper since it's vintage, but you also run the risk of it dying at any moment.  Sure, it's built like a tank, but it's still 20 years old.  Oh and you have to deal with finding one.  And of course, vintage DAC's don't have USB.  
 
The DAC-19 is much more expensive, but it's brand new, easy to order and comes with a warranty and a USB port.  Kingwa is very supportive of all his products and every Audio-GD that I've ever owned has felt like an amazing value for the money.
 
The Adcom GDA-600 was the cheapest of the three by a mile.  Mine was $89 before shipping!  It's also vintage with all the drawbacks that come with that and it's single-ended.  Sonically, it's similar to the other two, but it's a bit congested with a smaller soundstage and poor separation, especially when compared to the balanced Theta.  That said, given the price, it's a spectacular value for anyone looking to get their first "real" DAC or anyone looking to hear what all the R2R hype is about.  
 
As a side bonus, if you're into DIY, there are some upgrades you can do that supposedly really open up the soundstage and beef up the bass.  Mainly, we're talking about upgrading the opamps and some caps.  I think the total in parts alone was something like $250-300 so it's putting you into Theta territory.  I  plan on doing the upgrades on mine just for the fun of it.  The PCM-63 in the GDA-600 is supposed to be one of the best Burr-Brown R2R chips they made so I believe there is plenty of room for improvement.
 
I almost picked up the GDA-700 at one point and I'm still curious about how it sounds.  It uses a different chip than the 600 and it's fully balanced so I suspect it's more different sounding than one might expect given the model numbers.
 
That turned into a no-so-short version...

 

[jjacq]

   
In a thread about DAC's, I wouldn't think it's too off topic.  I've done plenty of comparisons of the DAC-19 and Theta Basic II in other threads.  The short version is this:
 
My Theta is balanced and the DAC-19 is SE.  When using them both in SE mode, I'm not sure that I'd be able to pick them apart in a blind test, that's how close their sounds are.  Balanced, the Theta pulls ahead a bit in soundstage/separation/imaging as you might expect.  
 
Picking one over the other comes down to price vs warranty/dependability/convenience.  The Theta is significantly cheaper since it's vintage, but you also run the risk of it dying at any moment.  Sure, it's built like a tank, but it's still 20 years old.  Oh and you have to deal with finding one.  And of course, vintage DAC's don't have USB.  
 
The DAC-19 is much more expensive, but it's brand new, easy to order and comes with a warranty and a USB port.  Kingwa is very supportive of all his products and every Audio-GD that I've ever owned has felt like an amazing value for the money.
 
The Adcom GDA-600 was the cheapest of the three by a mile.  Mine was $89 before shipping!  It's also vintage with all the drawbacks that come with that and it's single-ended.  Sonically, it's similar to the other two, but it's a bit congested with a smaller soundstage and poor separation, especially when compared to the balanced Theta.  That said, given the price, it's a spectacular value for anyone looking to get their first "real" DAC or anyone looking to hear what all the R2R hype is about.  
 
As a side bonus, if you're into DIY, there are some upgrades you can do that supposedly really open up the soundstage and beef up the bass.  Mainly, we're talking about upgrading the opamps and some caps.  I think the total in parts alone was something like $250-300 so it's putting you into Theta territory.  I  plan on doing the upgrades on mine just for the fun of it.  The PCM-63 in the GDA-600 is supposed to be one of the best Burr-Brown R2R chips they made so I believe there is plenty of room for improvement.
 
I almost picked up the GDA-700 at one point and I'm still curious about how it sounds.  It uses a different chip than the 600 and it's fully balanced so I suspect it's more different sounding than one might expect given the model numbers.
 
That turned into a no-so-short version...

Oh that's really interesting about the GDA-600. I didn't expect it to sound so different from the 700 but seems like it is from your impressions. (But what headphones were you using?) I own the GDA-700 and when I first got it, the bass was a bit slow but the LCD-X's bass is so fast that the GDA-700 makes it sound "normal" but the soundstage is extremely wide. The instrument separation is good, no flaws that I've noticed with the LCD-X but sometimes it can be too unrealistic with how the LCD-X is(warm treble). I just received it from the shop today actually but prior to having mine tuned, the bass does sound kind of syrupy and I really don't know why that is. The shop that hooked me up with the repair had said that it was cutting off on the 14-15k region too so it might've affected a lot of the sound when I was using it. Yes you are right with the GDA700 with its 2xPCM1702 chips with balanced out.  This is the only R2R DAC I've owned so far but I seriously can't stop praising it. I really want to get my hands on a Theta Gen V or DSPro Basic although I feel like I'm pretty close to extremely immersive hifi with the GDA700 too.
 
The owner of the DAC who had upgraded to the Reference 10.32 said that the latter is quite an improvement over the GDA-700 but he mainly got it for having an AIO system. I would encourage anyone to start the hunt for these vintage R2R DACs! They sound so good!! Or if you don't, more chances for me to get another one!

 

[Stillhart]

 
Oh that's really interesting about the GDA-600. I didn't expect it to sound so different from the 700 but seems like it is from your impressions. (But what headphones were you using?) I own the GDA-700 and when I first got it, the bass was a bit slow but the LCD-X's bass is so fast that the GDA-700 makes it sound "normal" but the soundstage is extremely wide. The instrument separation is good, no flaws that I've noticed with the LCD-X but sometimes it can be too unrealistic with how the LCD-X is(warm treble). I just received it from the shop today actually but prior to having mine tuned, the bass does sound kind of syrupy and I really don't know why that is. The shop that hooked me up with the repair had said that it was cutting off on the 14-15k region too so it might've affected a lot of the sound when I was using it. Yes you are right with the GDA700 with its 2xPCM1702 chips with balanced out.  This is the only R2R DAC I've owned so far but I seriously can't stop praising it. I really want to get my hands on a Theta Gen V or DSPro Basic although I feel like I'm pretty close to extremely immersive hifi with the GDA700 too.
 
The owner of the DAC who had upgraded to the Reference 10.32 said that the latter is quite an improvement over the GDA-700 but he mainly got it for having an AIO system. I would encourage anyone to start the hunt for these vintage R2R DACs! They sound so good!! Or if you don't, more chances for me to get another one!

 
I use the HE-560 as my main headphone, but I have a few others sitting around as well (HD650, Q701, X2, Blackwood, x Vibro, etc).  What repairs were needed?  I've never heard of a dAC that worked but only somewhat... usually it's all or nothing?  And yeah, I fully expect the Ref 10.32 to sound way better.  Much better components and design overall, plus double the DAC chips.
 
The GDA-700 is actually a pretty decent choice for a cheap balanced DAC.  Back when I was living on eBay looking for these, they tended to go for $200-300.  Assuming you don't need USB or high bitrates, that's a great bargain for a balanced R2R DAC.  (If you do, it's an extra $170 for a Gustard U12.  Or like $50 for a Sound Blaster Omni with an optical output.)  I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it as a decent option to go with the LC (tho it's pretty big).

 

[jjacq]

   
I use the HE-560 as my main headphone, but I have a few others sitting around as well (HD650, Q701, X2, Blackwood, x Vibro, etc).  What repairs were needed?  I've never heard of a dAC that worked but only somewhat... usually it's all or nothing?  And yeah, I fully expect the Ref 10.32 to sound way better.  Much better components and design overall, plus double the DAC chips.
 
The GDA-700 is actually a pretty decent choice for a cheap balanced DAC.  Back when I was living on eBay looking for these, they tended to go for $200-300.  Assuming you don't need USB or high bitrates, that's a great bargain for a balanced R2R DAC.  (If you do, it's an extra $170 for a Gustard U12.  Or like $50 for a Sound Blaster Omni with an optical output.)  I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it as a decent option to go with the LC (tho it's pretty big).

 
They gave me a parts list breakdown and it's somewhere in my car so I can get the specifics when I find that. All he told me was that the digital portion was working fine but when it comes to the analog part, it wouldn't produce the 14-15khz area. I'm not fully sure why but oh well, I'm just glad it's cleaned and conditioned now for the upcoming LC. Though right now, I'm only using it with a Cayin C5 so I'm kind of itching to buy another amp because I really hate using the C5 then it randomly dies because I forget to charge, but I'm surely not gonna use that when the LC arrives so it'll be a waste of space ><.
 
Thanks for the recommendations as well. I didn't expect the Gustard U12 to be so cheap! I should really find an excuse to own one since I don't really listen to anything above 16 bits!​

 

[logscool]

What do you guys think about the geek pulse xfi? What about that vs. the matrix x-sabre?

 

[warrenpchi]

  Off topic but is there any way you can compare the three DACs? Maybe you can PM?

 
This entire thread exists as a splinter from the two Liquid Carbon threads.  It is, by virtue of it's very nature, off-topic.  It's essence is that of something that was not on topic with something else.  And so I say...
 

 

[Jozurr]

   
In a thread about DAC's, I wouldn't think it's too off topic.  I've done plenty of comparisons of the DAC-19 and Theta Basic II in other threads.  The short version is this:
 
My Theta is balanced and the DAC-19 is SE.  When using them both in SE mode, I'm not sure that I'd be able to pick them apart in a blind test, that's how close their sounds are.  Balanced, the Theta pulls ahead a bit in soundstage/separation/imaging as you might expect.  
 
Picking one over the other comes down to price vs warranty/dependability/convenience.  The Theta is significantly cheaper since it's vintage, but you also run the risk of it dying at any moment.  Sure, it's built like a tank, but it's still 20 years old.  Oh and you have to deal with finding one.  And of course, vintage DAC's don't have USB.  
 
The DAC-19 is much more expensive, but it's brand new, easy to order and comes with a warranty and a USB port.  Kingwa is very supportive of all his products and every Audio-GD that I've ever owned has felt like an amazing value for the money.
 
The Adcom GDA-600 was the cheapest of the three by a mile.  Mine was $89 before shipping!  It's also vintage with all the drawbacks that come with that and it's single-ended.  Sonically, it's similar to the other two, but it's a bit congested with a smaller soundstage and poor separation, especially when compared to the balanced Theta.  That said, given the price, it's a spectacular value for anyone looking to get their first "real" DAC or anyone looking to hear what all the R2R hype is about.  
 
As a side bonus, if you're into DIY, there are some upgrades you can do that supposedly really open up the soundstage and beef up the bass.  Mainly, we're talking about upgrading the opamps and some caps.  I think the total in parts alone was something like $250-300 so it's putting you into Theta territory.  I  plan on doing the upgrades on mine just for the fun of it.  The PCM-63 in the GDA-600 is supposed to be one of the best Burr-Brown R2R chips they made so I believe there is plenty of room for improvement.
 
I almost picked up the GDA-700 at one point and I'm still curious about how it sounds.  It uses a different chip than the 600 and it's fully balanced so I suspect it's more different sounding than one might expect given the model numbers.
 
That turned into a no-so-short version...

 
What would be the maximum one should pay for the GDA-600, Theta Basic II and the GDA-700 before it isn't value for money anymore?

 

[Stillhart]

   
What would be the maximum one should pay for the GDA-600, Theta Basic II and the GDA-700 before it isn't value for money anymore?

 
Jeez, I dunno.  Value is a very subjective thing.  And it depends on a few other factors like whether you already have an optical or coax output on your computer, or whether you already have a digital interface like the U12, or whether the DAC in question has the interface that you have (the Thetas were customizable so some are balanced, some have optical, etc.).
 
Personally, I wouldn't spend more than $200 on the GDA-600, maybe $400-500 on the Basic II (depending on options), and maybe $300-350 on the GDA-700.  Those numbers are just based off the prices I was seeing a few months ago.  I did a quick check on ebay just now for all the usual suspects (Adcom, Theta, Monarchy, EAD, etc) and there's almost nothing available right now.  You're going to have be super patient if you want to get one, especially for a good price.

 

[DigitalFreak]

Hi guys, part one of the Liquid Carbon review just went live on headphone guru 5 minutes ago
 
Please read and i hope you enjoy
 
http://headphone.guru/the-cavalli-audio-liquid-carbon-part-i/

 

[doctorjazz]

Well written, but waiting for the sound part is a bit of a tease.

 

[DigitalFreak]

ok my friend, sound impressions just went live
 
http://headphone.guru/the-cavalli-audio-liquid-carbon-part-ii/

 

[Anjolie]

Yuuuuusssss!  I have high hopes now of my LC pairing with the HE-400i.  Thanks DigitalFreak for that great write-up!  Waiting for part 3 with great anticipation