[asymcon]

  Nobody (maybe you will) is going to care about OGG-Opus or even care. WavPack is terrible for portable audio running on a battery. WavPack is not battery friendly. So we can do without WavPack.

Nobody is a strong word for assertion. Opus, being one of the best, if not THE best lossy codec for audio^[source] certainly gets its share of attention. There are 7 bilion people on the planet, I don't think it's just me. No other codec can get you that much subjective, artifact-free quality on low bitrates. Some consider even 80kbps transparent. I personally prefer 140kbps.
 
How is WavPack terrible for portable audio running on battery??
It's way more CPU efficient than APE, which is supported natively:
 
APE (lowest complexity):
  Run 1:
    Decoded length: 2:55.907
    Opening time: 0:00.000
    Decoding time: 0:03.025
    Speed (x realtime): 58.151
 
WavPack (lowest complexity):
  Run 1:
    Decoded length: 2:55.907
    Opening time: 0:00.001
    Decoding time: 0:01.121
    Speed (x realtime): 156.725
 

  The VE Monk are good, not good enough for critical listening. Given that you think the X5II sounds the same as the Clip+ & the X3II, I think AKG is not all that good. You do need better headphones.

Better is relative. I managed to test lots of headphones in my time and those that I settled with I personally consider the best ones. In a few weeks, I'm about to put HD800 into test against K240DF among others. I'm fairly certain AKG won't be far behind.

There are quite a few methods how to verify this "DAC sound" analogy. One of such being null-test, which unquestionably reveal any difference, if there is any to begin with.
 
 
 

  Here some kind opinions that I have, please take them with the same kindness I write them 

Did I came out as unkind? That certainly wasn't my intention, nor does it appear in 2nd read.
 
 

  1. Measuring the parameters is good - but it never tells the whole story with something complex like music. Example: my phone is arguably more energetic than my old phone (Xiaomi mi MAX vs HTC 820). The sound is more dynamic, much better and brighter top end, but bass is nowhere close as fast as x5ii which is able to render the finest textures ever seen in the lower registers!

Null-test, unlike method which cannot be discussed here, undeniably reveals any difference in sound between two or more devices, if there's any. The gist is subtracting one sound source from another, so you'll end up with just the difference. That's the safest, most accurate method of telling green apple from red one.

  2. Viper4Android has been told to be really awesome for any kind of audio! I own one rockbox Clip+ as it didn't sound so good with ie800, even with a less resolving IEM like ie8...My phone on VLC and stock MIUI sounds worlds better than Clip+ rockboxed, but this was my experience. I need more power, because ie800 and dj one pro are really hard to drive, so maybe this has a role in all, but ie8 was not hard to drive yet sounded much better (worlds) from X5 first generation than clip+
 
Personal thing: I really dislike crossfeed, I want it as small as possible, separation to be as big as humanly possible.

May I ask how did you perform this comparison? If the gap between changing sources is too wide, human auditory memory start to deteriorate just after 0.2 seconds.
Clip+ runs 15mW into 16Ohm load. That's not bad given its specs. Due to Clip+ size, one can't expect stunning crosstalk performance into low impedances, that's physical limitation which cannot be avoided other than making the DAP bigger. But even Clip's figure is good enough.
Last rockbox builds are capable of overdriving the amp into 1.1Vrms region, which is enough for casual listening in K240DF or K601.
 
 

  3. X5-3 has Android! You can install any app your heart desires so you can decode virtually any codec in this world! I also have a feeling that OGG and Wav works since I vaguely remember usinng OGG -q10 and wav on X5ii. I know I have a few songs in those formats, but memory is fuzzy whether I ever listened to those tracks or not - I will test for you 

 
OGG-Vorbis != OGG-Opus
WavPack != RIFF WAVE
 
Opus is quite different from Vorbis, and has much better efficiency, if not the best out of all lossy codecs.
WavPack, unlike FLAC, APE or Apple Lossless support both IEEE754 and in new iteration even DSD64.
 
As for X5-3 having Android, that I'd personally consider a disadvantage. Given how is recent Android limited (only MTP mode for USB access), how inefficient (at least 2GB of RAM needed vs. 2MB for Rockbox - that's one magnitude higher!) and unsuitable for audio overall (only 44.1k and 48k are supported natively).
 
My "new" setup running Clip+ into opamp-switched (TLE2062/OPA2277) Objective2 requires just 0.15W and last around 150 hours on single charge with target battery design. Without O2, Clip runs on 0.04W.
 
Compare that to X3II which needs 0.78W into line-out and 0.9W into headphone out.
X5II needs 1.27W
Those are some significant differences.
 
 

  Please expect me to write an in detail thing about V4a and it's abilities and to have a better comeback about this. I strongly prefered X5 and X5-2 EQ implementations to clip+  - to the point where there was no comparison... 

 
EQ in Rockbox are miles more exhaustive than the "preset" stuff in Fiio DAPs.
Centre frequency can be individually adjusted for each separate band (out of 15). All those bands can go up or down by 6dB in 0.1dB steps.
Bell width (Q-parameter) is also freely adjustable.
All this is not possible in Fiio's FW. There are just 8 bands with preset frequencies and width. Furthermore by activating the EQ, the volume automatically shifts down by 6dB even if you're just using the EQ for attenuation.
 
I would strongly encourage you or anyone else to revisit the $20 - $40 Clip+ with your mind free of judgement or McGurk effect. If it's that bad, it wouldn't be popular in the first place.

 

 

[enragedlemon]

I would strongly encourage you or anyone else to revisit the $20 - $40 Clip+ with your mind free of judgement or McGurk effect. If it's that bad, it wouldn't be popular in the first place.

You certainly make some valid points in your post, but I suspect you hold some extremely minority opinions here. Not meaning to invalidate your views, but have you considered taking a hearing test? I'll agree that what is "better" is definitely a matter for interpretation, but that certain things are obviously different can't be debated. For example, the HD800 has a wildly different signature versus anything offered by AKG. Some may not like the HD800 signature, but it undoubtedly resolves audio more clearly. In the same vein, most mid-range DAPs are likely to be vastly clearer than any low-end one.

 

[asymcon]

certain things are obviously different can't be debated

Exactly, yet different doesn't mean automatically better.
 

it (HD800) undoubtedly resolves audio more clearly

That remains to be tested/heard. To my knowledge, no-one directly compared DFs to HD800. From what I have heard personally, DFs against HD650 or against DT880-600 they always came out as winner in majority of aspects, subjectively speaking.

In the same vein, most mid-range DAPs are likely to be vastly clearer than any low-end one.

That's debatable. Well-known person, who shall not be named (

) compared Clip+ to iPod 6 and surprise, they weren't that far apart, with Clip+ coming out as winner in practical terms (lower output impedance, higher voltage, MSC mode, ...).
Once certain threshold is reached, all DAPs/DACs should be audibly transparent. The rest is McGurk and sighted listening doing its thing.

 

[enragedlemon]

Exactly, yet different doesn't mean automatically better.

Yes, that's what I said first off...

That remains to be tested/heard. To my knowledge, no-one directly compared DFs to HD800. From what I have heard personally, DFs against HD650 or against DT880-600 they always came out as winner in majority of aspects, subjectively speaking.

The HD800 is very different to the HD650. If you don't know that, you need to go and do some more research.

That's debatable. Well-known person, who shall not be named p ) compared Clip+ to iPod 6 and surprise, they weren't that far apart, with Clip+ coming out as winner in practical terms (lower output impedance, higher voltage, MSC mode, ...).
Once certain threshold is reached, all DAPs/DACs should be audibly transparent. The rest is McGurk and sighted listening doing its thing.

Apple products are not mid-range DAPs, full stop. They use rather low-end audio components. We aren't comparing them at all here. Like I said, you may want to do some more research.

 

[asymcon]

Quote:

The HD800 is very different to the HD650. If you don't know that, you need to go and do some more research.

I know that very well. Much like K240S being different to K240M or DF.
Sennheiser seems to know well too, they charge twice as much for individual plugs for HD800 compared to HD650.

They use rather low-end audio components. We aren't comparing them at all here.

Let's estabilish first what's low-end component. Is that the one which performs poorly in specific audio application, or one that's cheaper than otherwise "high-end" offering?

 

[enragedlemon]

Quote:

Let's estabilish first what's low-end component. Is that the one which performs poorly in specific audio application, or one that's cheaper than otherwise "high-end" offering?

Usually the two are somewhat related, but with declining returns on price versus performance. However, for this purpose we are comparing audio component quality, not the direct price. For example, the reviews for the X5iii and other FiiO products bat above their price point, as I have no doubt the Clip+ also does. However, they are not in the same class

 

[RERO]

You guys/gals make my rationale for wanting the X5 III really shallow... I just want one because it's pretty (in red). Well I guess the bottom HO and dual meme DACs sold me as well.

This thread is going full Obj. vs Subj. real soon...

 

[Dexter22]

  Exactly, yet different doesn't mean automatically better.
 
That remains to be tested/heard. To my knowledge, no-one directly compared DFs to HD800. From what I have heard personally, DFs against HD650 or against DT880-600 they always came out as winner in majority of aspects, subjectively speaking.
That's debatable. Well-known person, who shall not be named (

) compared Clip+ to iPod 6 and surprise, they weren't that far apart, with Clip+ coming out as winner in practical terms (lower output impedance, higher voltage, MSC mode, ...).
Once certain threshold is reached, all DAPs/DACs should be audibly transparent. The rest is McGurk and sighted listening doing its thing.

Did you find the clip + to the sounding similar to the FiiO X3ii, X5ii? 

 

[asymcon]

  Did you find the clip + to the sounding similar to the FiiO X3ii, X5ii? 

In direct volume matched listening test involving switchbox it sounded indistinguishable from X3II/X5II on 44.1kHz.
As for other audio differences - Clip+ currently suffers from 0.7% pitch error on 48kHz and has higher noise floor than X5II. Format support is well extended not only to aforementioned WavPack and Opus but also IT, XM, S3M and MOD modules. Functionality-wise, it has better EQ and allows for pitch/speed adjustment either by semitones or percentage.
On the other hand Clip+ cannot yet automatically switch between 44.1kHz and 48kHz. There's no support for DSD or any hi-res format, but that's fixable. Clip's PCB size restricts stereo separation performance to figures below 50dB.
X3II/X5II sports more powerful amp section, peaking at 2.8Vrms and over 200mW of raw power per channel. Clip+ manages 0.52Vrms (1.1V with latest build on +6dB) and 15mW.
 
X3II/X5II's battery runtime is around 10-12 hours, Clip+ with latest build runs for 22-30 hours. Comparing power consumption, X3II/X5II consumes up to 32 times more power than Clip+. With X5II battery, Clip+ would run for 306 hours (1 week, 5 days).
 
Fiio DAPs have issues with certain SD cards, oftentimes rendered as skips in audio. Very annoying in any kind of listening.
No such issue with Clip, although certain cards cause more reinits when undervolted.
There were also reported issues regarding headphone jack deteriorating faster than it should. Clip+ to an extent share this issue too, but on my 5 units it never manifested.
 
Scroll wheel on Fiio DAPs is generally dust magnet. My first X3II failed because of this. Clip+ with aftermarket silicone case has all its buttons well covered, but of course every momentary switch has limited lifespan.

 

[Dexter22]

  In direct volume matched listening test involving switchbox it sounded indistinguishable from X3II/X5II on 44.1kHz.
As for other audio differences - Clip+ currently suffers from 0.7% pitch error on 48kHz and has higher noise floor than X5II. Format support is well extended not only to already mentioned WavPack and Opus but also IT, XM, S3M and MOD modules. Functionality-wise, it has better EQ and allows for pitch/speed adjustment either by semitones or percentage.
On the other hand Clip+ cannot yet automatically switch between 44.1kHz and 48kHz. There's no support for DSD or any hi-res format, but that's fixable. Clip's PCB size restricts stereo separation performance to figures below 50dB.
X3II/X5II sports more powerful amp section, peaking at 2.8Vrms and over 200mW of raw power per channel. Clip+ manages 0.52Vrms (1.1V with latest build on +6dB) and 15mW.
 
X3II/X5II's battery runtime is around 10-12 hours, Clip+ with latest build runs for 22-30 hours. Comparing power consumption, X3II/X5II consumes up to 32 times more power than Clip+

That's an eyeopener. I never listened to a clip+, I must get one then, because I listen only while I walk around on a train, and all other features are not important to me: My playlist has 80 percent 44.1khz stuff. Plus I dont have to baby sit an expensive DAP, But, I felt, no difference between DAP thing is an overstatement. They are just subtle in most cases, once they are on the real DAP category. For example it is very easy to say that my iPod Nano 7th gen is far behind my previous xduoo x3. iPod simply was a waste of money in that case. But, FiiO X5 2nd gen 1 have now, sound wise- I can only say it is better to the xduoo, but with a small margin. You have to listen that in a quiet room. But, step on to the daily life on a train, with lot of ambient noise, as my Beoplay H6's can't block the noise around that well, the differences are not noticeable. Plus its big in my pocket. I must admit, the only reason I carry the FiiO is that some of my office mates told me that my old xduoo had a cheaper chinese product look(which hurt my ego) and now I have a more premium stuff on my table, with a proper leather cover. To my old office mates, its already good, as it looks better To me, its actually a step up in looks and features more than, sound.

 

[superuser1]

Phew! What an ordeal i went through since the morning. Updated to FW 1.1.0 and somehow mSD slot 1 128gb Sandisk got corrupted and was dragging the entire android system as it was unable to scan it or access it. This conclusion was arrived at by me after hard restarting and doing a factory reset. As it turn out there was nothing wrong with the device or the FW. I just scanned the card and fixed it in Win 10 and lo and behold it was recognised and started to work as expected. The entire day has been dry without music. So to end the short lived but painful drought I decided to quench my thirst with Xanadu - Rush
 
I am glad i got hold of the problem and didn't break my head much over it. Had i not detected the problem I would be in a rather tight spot. I realise if anyone faces and freezes or lags, please first remove the mSD cards and see if the device is behaving properly.

 

[Cezn]

Hi , i just bought X5III recently and got an issue 
when i stored my song folder (dsd files) into the internal drive under "music" folder and scan the song on fiio native music player the display only showing unknown number without the song title on it
but when i select the options internal storage i can see the title of the song , if i choose the song it still not displaying the title just random numbers
strangely it only happens with dsd files and working fine with my other format (flac/wav/m4a)
any of you guys having same problem ?

sorry for my bad english

 

[superuser1]

  Hi , i just bought X5III recently and got an issue 
when i stored my song folder (dsd files) into the internal drive under "music" folder and scan the song on fiio native music player the display only showing unknown number without the song title on it
but when i select the options internal storage i can see the title of the song , if i choose the song it still not displaying the title just random numbers
strangely it only happens with dsd files and working fine with my other format (flac/wav/m4a)
any of you guys having same problem ?

sorry for my bad english

 
The culprit in my situation was a wv album A Momentary Lapse of Reason - Floyd. Thankfully my DSD files shows correctly.

 

[Dojomoto]

 
I changed my mind because my budget had taken a significant hit with lack of work due to all of the storms we have had so I cannot afford the DPX1A now.  Life happens.  My cell phone died so I had to upgrade to a brand new phone and my phone bill went up over $100.00 a month.  I also have at least 5 concerts I am traveling to this year.  So I cannot afford the DPX1A on my very limited income right now.  I work for my dad in our almond orchard and a walnut orchard that we manage for a friend.  Due to all of the storms in Northern California I am not able to work.  I have not worked since before Christmas.  I also have to buy new prescription glasses and sunglasses in the fall which are quite pricey.  I am hoping to be able to afford a Fiio X5 3 this year, but don't know when I can afford it.
 
Cheers
 
Riley

 
 
 
Thanks for the reply. I was wondering if there was a Hardware/Firmware feature that made you choose one over the other. So, it was a matter of financial situation. I hope the year improves for you and the other farmers in Northern Cal. Good luck!

 

[ryan750mhz]

Hi, have you encountered this issue of sometimes i cannot view my MicroSd in the folder viewer