Empire Ears - Discussion & Impressions (Formerly EarWerkz)
Jun 30, 2018 at 6:27 PM Post #14,491 of 40,579
Not sure if this is going off topic, but has anyone any recommendations for speakers that have the same tonal balance and timbre as the Phantoms which sound I love?
I don't want to steal anyone's thunder here but there's some things to consider here on top of Pete's questions.

1) Whenever recommending gear - unless they are willing to purchase blindly - it's best to stick with gear that is easily attainable for the seeker. So while it's all considered help, this type of mindful guidance will have more value when the recommended products are easily attainable, unless once again, they commit to blind purchases. So with that said the first question I would politely ask is, which brands can you audition in your area? There's also the used market like Pete mentioned and that's typically the best recommendation. If you're in a heavily populated area, sites like US Audio Mart and Audiogon can be a better way of accessing and auditioning a more diverse selection of loudspeakers. This way you can at least consider every single speaker recommended to you as well. It's safe to say even highly sought after speakers commonly net somewhere around 60% of MSRP on the used market. Give or take for variables like condition, brand recognition, location, and of course greed. But in the price range you're working in you should also typically be able to purchase brand new for 25% off, no "sale" required, just be a decent human being, pay in cash/debit and stand your ground. Regardless of what they may claim, trust me when I say that - as long as their shop is being run wisely - they are doing just fine selling at such a discount : ) So, the delta between new and used becomes narrower than most would guess. There's something said for a warranty but loudspeakers have much lower defect rates than components so that shouldn't be a concern.

2) Can we assume that your looking for standmount loudspeakers, not floorstanding? I mention this because although $2500 is a healthy budget, you'd be asking a lot of any floorstanding loudspeaker in that price range to be as coherent as Phantoms are - or any iem decent iem really. It's the biggest downfall of multiple driver/crossover loudspeakers and you pay a lot to achieve near seamless driver coherency. Absolute seamless multi-driver loudspeakers would push you well above your budget. There will be those that oppose this view but it all comes down to what your reference for coherency in loudspeaker design is exactly. There's the mid-bass hump

3) Though $2500 is no small sum, reproducing wide-bandwidth music with a focus on the 3 T's (tone, timbre and texture) above all else is on this budget is asking too much. $2500 puts you in standmount territory, not floorstanding which will have you sacrificing sub-bass for timbre and tone. On average standmount loudspeakers* won't produce objectively sufficient levels of sub-bass unless your room is on the smaller side (which means different things across the world) but say 100 sq ft. Maybe you can live with suppressed sub-bass like many standmount loudspeaker owners (without subs) easily do, but you also sacrifice a sense of realism as well as air in your music with a lack of sub-bass. It's counterintuitive but proper quantities of sub-bass help to provide a sense of air, not actually augmenting frequencies, it's a well documented pyschoacoustic phenomenon I only learned from my hilariously over-qualified co-worker with his PhD in the very field. Point here is even though Phantoms aren't a bassheads iem per se, as well that loudspeakers have more impactful bass response than iems on a whole, reproducing the same levels of satisfying Phantom sub-bass - which accounts in the sense of realism and air - with standmount loudspeakers without help from a dedicated sub per channel regardless of room size is an uphill battle not easily won. More controversy but one mono sub is blasphemy in 2ch, well unfortunately separate subs in general still are due to difficulty of seamless integration)

With all this said Harbeth P3ESR lol. Easy to find. Tone for days. Timbre kings. Lack sub-bass like 99% of standmounts but unlike this near universal truth they also roll off into the upper most frequencies, a compromise I'd be willing to take for their seductive tone. Clearly needs to be auditioned, though they are one of the most respected loudspeaker brands with a legendary history, at the end of the day it's all subjective and there are of course folks that look elsewhere but there's also the crowd can't fully appreciate their house sound as they're used to exaggerated detail...same can be said for Phantoms. To relate it to automobiles and drastically oversimplify it for my purposes, there's the spec driven crowd, and the comfort crowd. You can insert your own iems into the analogy. Then there's those that are seeking both. Quick and nimble plus comfortable, say a sporty luxury car for example. This is what I'd consider the Phantom's demographic - not literally but you get it - and considering your budget, plus a wide distribution never hurts, I can confidently say that P3ESR's should be at least considered as your AMG Merc...bad pick? I'm not really much of a car guy.

* There are exceptions to every rule with some large standmounts out there that have surprising amounts of sub-bass, usually coming down to enclosure size but with compromises in other areas to produce their bewildering sub-bass for a standmount. There's even 3-way standmount designs and probably some rare 2.5-way. Then complete anomalies like the the Kii Three. Btw none of which that I know of would I say they resemble the Phantoms 3 T's. Well save for Kii Three, but they're something all together different. It's the loudspeaker I'd purchase : )
 
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Jul 1, 2018 at 3:47 AM Post #14,492 of 40,579
Finally got the kid down for a nap and thought I would post my NEW favorite pairing with the Legend-X: the Beat Audio Prima Donna 8-wire (it will remain my favorite pairing for at least two days I'm sure)...





Ain't she purdy? I still want to try the Thor 8-wire, but honestly this match-up leaves nothing to be desired at least for me. Gives a tad more sparkle to the treble over my Norne Silvergarde and tightens the bass up just a tad, which is exactly what I was looking for. Not the all out powerful cave-in-your-skull bass of the Silvergarde, but a more refined and balanced listen. Seriously, I'm going to leave this cable attached for at least 48 hours...

-Collin-

Totally awsome!! Another beauty.
But... wait... why... 48 hours?? 4 +8 ? .... are u sure?
giphy.gif


Edit: 1200 $.... i'm out. At least for the next... 48 hours.
 
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Jul 1, 2018 at 9:07 AM Post #14,493 of 40,579
Totally awsome!! Another beauty.
But... wait... why... 48 hours?? 4 +8 ? .... are u sure?
giphy.gif


Edit: 1200 $.... i'm out. At least for the next... 48 hours.

I'm always hunting deals on the classifieds... Found this cable needing a new home :)
 
Jul 1, 2018 at 9:25 AM Post #14,494 of 40,579
I'd recommend something w/ RAAL ribbon tweeters. Ascend, Salk, Philharmonic, etc.

Koven, the problem here is that he wants the tonality of the Phantom and the coherency. You can't say that one type of driver is better or not. I love carbon, but I've heard it sound like crap on speakers costing over 250,000 usd. I've heard the RAAL tweeter sound very smooth and natural, but not totally accurate tonality wise. Teh other problem are matching them to get coherency. I spoke with a well known designer who uses them, because he loves how fast ribbons are, but he said that he has yet to find anything that can keep up with the speed for any mid bass unit down.

It's all about implementation as we all know and talk about for IEM's. I'm not saying those aren't good sounding speakers, so please don't take it that way. A good friend of mine who makes some of the highest end electronics purchased a pair of Vapors adn loves them. I am not sure if they are Nimbus or not, but he said they are the only model of theirs that he likes. I asked him the problems with the RAAL's in his mind. Yes, they are beautiful in the mids. They are right there with the carbon fiber that Richard Vandersteen makes, but they are not good in the upper registers. They just aren't engineered that way. We all hear differently, but I've heard LSA, Salk, Seleh, Vapor, Acend Accoustics and a few others.

Would I put these on an audition list? Of course, as long as they are accessible, but most of these really aren't. Read what Nate talks about below IRT availability. This is why I asked where he lives. What folks don't realize is that the Phantom does have legit high frequency reproduction. I have played plenty of music on it that has high end energy and it sure seems pretty accurate. It just doesn't add any extra energy, like so many others do to make them seem more open on top. Again, this is just my humble opinion adn I'm not disparaging any of those speakers you mentioned, although for personal reasons, there are a few of them mentioned that I'd stand clear of because of the company :wink:....

I don't want to steal anyone's thunder here but there's some things to consider here on top of Pete's questions.

1) Whenever recommending gear - unless they are willing to purchase blindly - it's best to stick with gear that is easily attainable for the seeker. So while it's all considered help, this type of mindful guidance will have more value when the recommended products are easily attainable, unless once again, they commit to blind purchases. So with that said the first question I would politely ask is, which brands can you audition in your area? There's also the used market like Pete mentioned and that's typically the best recommendation. If you're in a heavily populated area, sites like US Audio Mart and Audiogon can be a better way of accessing and auditioning a more diverse selection of loudspeakers. This way you can at least consider every single speaker recommended to you as well. It's safe to say even highly sought after speakers commonly net somewhere around 60% of MSRP on the used market. Give or take for variables like condition, brand recognition, location, and of course greed. But in the price range you're working in you should also typically be able to purchase brand new for 25% off, no "sale" required, just be a decent human being, pay in cash/debit and stand your ground. Regardless of what they may claim, trust me when I say that - as long as their shop is being run wisely - they are doing just fine selling at such a discount : ) So, the delta between new and used becomes narrower than most would guess. There's something said for a warranty but loudspeakers have much lower defect rates than components so that shouldn't be a concern.

2) Can we assume that your looking for standmount loudspeakers, not floorstanding? I mention this because although $2500 is a healthy budget, you'd be asking a lot of any floorstanding loudspeaker in that price range to be as coherent as Phantoms are - or any iem decent iem really. It's the biggest downfall of multiple driver/crossover loudspeakers and you pay a lot to achieve near seamless driver coherency. Absolute seamless multi-driver loudspeakers would push you well above your budget. There will be those that oppose this view but it all comes down to what your reference for coherency in loudspeaker design is exactly. There's the mid-bass hump

3) Though $2500 is no small sum, reproducing wide-bandwidth music with a focus on the 3 T's (tone, timbre and texture) above all else is on this budget is asking too much. $2500 puts you in standmount territory, not floorstanding which will have you sacrificing sub-bass for timbre and tone. On average standmount loudspeakers* won't produce objectively sufficient levels of sub-bass unless your room is on the smaller side (which means different things across the world) but say 100 sq ft. Maybe you can live with suppressed sub-bass like many standmount loudspeaker owners (without subs) easily do, but you also sacrifice a sense of realism as well as air in your music with a lack of sub-bass. It's counterintuitive but proper quantities of sub-bass help to provide a sense of air, not actually augmenting frequencies, it's a well documented pyschoacoustic phenomenon I only learned from my hilariously over-qualified co-worker with his PhD in the very field. Point here is even though Phantoms aren't a bassheads iem per se, as well that loudspeakers have more impactful bass response than iems on a whole, reproducing the same levels of satisfying Phantom sub-bass - which accounts in the sense of realism and air - with standmount loudspeakers without help from a dedicated sub per channel regardless of room size is an uphill battle not easily won. More controversy but one mono sub is blasphemy in 2ch, well unfortunately separate subs in general still are due to difficulty of seamless integration)

With all this said Harbeth P3ESR lol. Easy to find. Tone for days. Timbre kings. Lack sub-bass like 99% of standmounts but unlike this near universal truth they also roll off into the upper most frequencies, a compromise I'd be willing to take for their seductive tone. Clearly needs to be auditioned, though they are one of the most respected loudspeaker brands with a legendary history, at the end of the day it's all subjective and there are of course folks that look elsewhere but there's also the crowd can't fully appreciate their house sound as they're used to exaggerated detail...same can be said for Phantoms. To relate it to automobiles and drastically oversimplify it for my purposes, there's the spec driven crowd, and the comfort crowd. You can insert your own iems into the analogy. Then there's those that are seeking both. Quick and nimble plus comfortable, say a sporty luxury car for example. This is what I'd consider the Phantom's demographic - not literally but you get it - and considering your budget, plus a wide distribution never hurts, I can confidently say that P3ESR's should be at least considered as your AMG Merc...bad pick? I'm not really much of a car guy.

* There are exceptions to every rule with some large standmounts out there that have surprising amounts of sub-bass, usually coming down to enclosure size but with compromises in other areas to produce their bewildering sub-bass for a standmount. There's even 3-way standmount designs and probably some rare 2.5-way. Then complete anomalies like the the Kii Three. Btw none of which that I know of would I say they resemble the Phantoms 3 T's. Well save for Kii Three, but they're something all together different. It's the loudspeaker I'd purchase : )

Great post. As I said above, this is why I asked where he lives. I personally would never purchase anything that I couldn't easily get repaired here in the US. It's why I have stayed away from many top brands in the world that I have full access to, even if they aren't imported in due to folks I've gotten to know. My problem is that things break. For some reason, the more expensive, it seems like the more minor problems you seem to run into, lol. I've bough a few things used, but not much. I also keep in mind name and salability. If you cont' like it, can you get rid of it and not lose much or any? I know that's not about sound, but it's about a sound purchase to me.

For 2500, if it's just for the speaker, that's plenty to get some great sound in most rooms. Bass is still the foundation of all music. This is why I usually lean towards a floor stander. To me, it's about what size footprint can you have and how wide and tall can you go. My dad and brother once bought the same system that I put together and they were the stand mounted Proac's. They sounded great, but after a week or so, both of them complained that they weren't getting enough bass and asked what the problem was. I explained to them, that I told them about this before they purchased. I ended up selling said speakers for both of them and I still have the Target stands in teh basement that I need to get rid of, lol...This is why auditioning is SOOOO important.

As for Harbeths, they are outstanding and fun to listen to for days. The only problem is that even their top of the line 40's Anniversary model just doesn't have much extension on either end of the spectrum. I was listening to them with the newest top MSB Reference DAC (95,000), AMP (40,000) with the passive pre amp built into the DAC and about another 50,000 worth of cables, interconnects, power cords all on top of a 50,000 stand. It was in a room that has over 100,000 worth of acoustic treatment, but is NOT over damped as most rooms can be.

I'd own the beautifully built MSB components in a heart beat. Just stunning with sound to match. (they sell some of the best headphone amp you can purchase and they aren't cheap, lol). The Harbeths were outstanding. They actually threw a soundstage and had some bass, but it was still a bit light and also not as tight as ti should be for the price.

What it all comes down to is that with there of us posting about what we may like, we have come up with three totally different ideas. That just shows WHY you need to find a dealer and work with them. Other wise you will end up with components that may not play well in the sandbox together (synergy is a MAJOR component and most often overlooked along with room acoustics). Hope I haven't offended anyone, but I'm very opinionated as you all know along with passion, it's dangerous. lol.
 
Jul 1, 2018 at 10:42 AM Post #14,495 of 40,579
Thanks everyone for the responses! I am based in Singapore, and I am clearly uninformed as to the variety of qualities of speakers there exists, and how inadequate my initial budget was. I do not have any components to make up a system (e.g. no pre-amp or amp etc.). I do have a Chord Mojo but it is unlikely to be my primary home DAC if I do get a dedicated one. At the risk of horrifying the more astute listeners amongst us, I am considering an active system complete with in-built DAC(s) and amp(s). To this end, one option that I have found and am looking to audition is the KEF LS50W. I should disclaim that I have not heard the system and as such I do not know how it sounds. I'm not certain that I'll have the energy and resources to put together a complete system manually.
 
Jul 1, 2018 at 11:15 AM Post #14,496 of 40,579
This is kind of going off the rails for an EE thread. Perhaps you should take this to a different thread, or simply start a new one.

That said, I have both old and (relatively) new Kef's and they have a great reference sound. But they are not warm in the way the Phantom was to me. Much more neutral. The op has a lot of decisions to make and thinking to do. Good luck.
 
Jul 1, 2018 at 9:11 PM Post #14,497 of 40,579
Agreed Olddude. Sorry to all, but when there are questions, I just automatically want to help. Yuki, PM me if you want to. Plenty of options. To segue back to the thread, it made me think about how good the Phantom really is to those of us who want a true reference sound, that's also musical. Nic addressed the differences between tone and neutral. Was that on HIS shootout thread or here? I just don't know anymore. It's one of the best reads I've had in ages IRT all audio and how we listen.

It really will make you think about the way you listen to your music when listening critically. What I find most ironic is that LOVE my wife's Bravado's. They are so well built and they are fun. They are open, have some good strong and accurate bass and the mids are 'there'. I personally feel that a good transducer will play all music well. I really feel that if an IEM is great on Jazz, but doesn't sound right for orchestral, then something is wrong to me. I get something being leaner or flabbier or not as extended or recesses mids or......

I have been able to audition many high end cables recently and I was so concerned that something was wrong, that I had to discuss it with Nic.Most were way too lean. They may have shown off a more extended high end, but at teh expense of 'body' and fullness. The Phantom lost it's bass. I mean the bottom just dropped out. I won't name the cables (a few different companies) as they sent them for an audition. What they did, the Phantom's showed off in spades, but they tipped the tonal balance. I know in 2 channel folks 'tune' their systems with cables, but I'm against that personally. I feel cables are the last thing to concern myself with when putting a system together. The reason to me, is that 90% of the time you will get much more bang for the buck by using that money on a better source or transducer. In the IEM world, our sources come with a DAC adn amplification built in most of the time, so we can make an upgrade here and get everything upgraded. We only worry about the headphone cable, but if you have other connections, then those need to be worried about too eventually.

Teh reasons I'm loving these new EE lines are that they offer something for all of us at most price ranges, I do notice that a few of the IEM's seem to get lost in the shuffle (Vantage, ESR etc....) Just an observation.
 
Jul 1, 2018 at 10:17 PM Post #14,498 of 40,579
The Ares ll is a really good all-around cable. The 8-wire bespoke version is even better. The danger of swapping out cables is you run the risk of changing the sound signature in a way you won't like. Of course you could improve it as well, it's kind of a crap shoot. This can become really problematic with the more expensive cables if you find you don't like what they do. I have no issue buying and selling <$400 cables, but I'm not willing to buy one for more than that without making sure (with my own ears) it has good synergy with my DAC and my IEMs. And unfortunately, if you change one of those, sometimes you lose that synergy even though you had previously liked the cable. When I changed up from an AK240SS to the SP1000, my Moon Silver Dragon didn't handle the change well.

As to reference sound, the IEM I like the most for that (even though it's not strictly reference) is my Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor. It's got one or two frequency bumps, but overall it's pretty much reference (what is recorded is what you hear). Much more so than my Zeus in X mode. But I find myself using the Zeus much more than the UERM. With the Phantom, it was just too thick in the vocals, a bit too warm in the lower mids, not enough treble for my taste, and I sold it. We all hear differently, as with the poster here who heard sibilance with the Phantom and the Legend. I didn't even hear TREBLE with the Legend. :)
 
Jul 2, 2018 at 2:10 AM Post #14,499 of 40,579
another week of waiting for my order. For someone who likes instant gratification, it sure is painful
 
Jul 2, 2018 at 3:35 AM Post #14,501 of 40,579
6 months ago.


I have been wanted to into IEM for a long time, and chance came I bought a pair of Shure 846 and a Sony WM1A (after I sold the NX300). I was very happy with this setup until I heard the Andromeda. It really open my Ears after hearing what the iem could do compared to my stereo system sitting at home.


One month ago


The Legend X arrived. Before this, I have tried to buy used LX without success due to the continent that I am in (South East Asia). After burning in for about 200 hours, I believe the LX has already run in.


Right when I receive the LX, I was so excited with all claims about it. I have seen some forummer dump Fourte or A18t for this legend, that must say a lot about its credentials. So when I first heard it, it was like OMG, how can I get rid of it. Why it sounded so rough and flat. Why not just sell it and switch to Fourte or a18t. Vaguely I felt that it sounded may be on par to the Andro I heard.


But then I persist and just kept going. As usual I kept playing some vocals and easy tracks. As with the burn in, the changes seem to take a evolutionary turn for the better. I began to hear smoothness in the vocal, more resolving and controlled bass. Back to the familiar tracks I normally played:

1. Dean Peer – Ucross

2. Stevie Ray - Tin Pan Alley

3. Bozzio Levin Stevens- Black Light Syndrome

4. Bluecoast – Looking for a home

5. Judith Owen – Conway Bay

6. Dire Straits – Industrial disease

7. Brendan Perry – Ark – Babylon

8. Time for Three - Three fervent traveler - Ecuador

The acoustics tracks of Dean Peer is supposed to have the roof shattering effect and get your heart pumping to electric guitar plucking. If you don’t feel it, that means the sound system is just not up to mark. The LX delivers with excellent bass that I have heard on the expensive home system (refer below). As for the high, I have been told times and again to stay with 64audio as I prefer “resolution and detail” department. Well again this beats my belief that the resolution and detail is not light in this department. The treble has detail and texture surprises me, however I prefer the treble when paired with silver cables, due mainly on my taste of musics. Legend X does sound big on the tiny IEM, giving the live feel yet can be studio monitor on those audiophile tracks.

Finally I kept in touch with Jack Vang and I told him the LX is not up for sale. If it is, it would be for a customs LX. Yes, get marry and stay focus to one.


Note : I have listened to TAD CR1 system worth USD 200k, MBL system with dCS Vivaldi and ODIN II cable loom worth USD 500k, and a host of other expensive system in their private enclave (not audio show). What the Legend X achieves is quite remarkable. My stereo system is a Dynaudio C1 with MSB analog and digital gears.
 
Jul 2, 2018 at 3:52 PM Post #14,504 of 40,579
No, these are simply just tips, to replace silicone and foam tips used in universal iems.

This way you get a perfect seal, and comfort. I get more bass with these even over using the comply foams or symbio hybrids. Additionally it doesn't tame the highs,, offers same - dB attenuation as a Ciem. I'm floored
Hi! I'm wondering what material is used for these...looks like silicone? Or is it acrylic? Thanks!
 

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