Apr 13, 2018 at 10:48 PM Post #12,736 of 41,717
Re Zeus (XR) vs. Phantom: very apples and oranges. The Zeus (in X mode) with Ares ll on my AK Sp1000SS is transparent, incredibly detailed in the uppers and mids, somewhat bright, nice clean bass that is there when the music presents it but that is not the feature of the IEM (it CAN fill up the sound if it's there on the track). The Phantom with Ares ll goes the other way: the bass and mids are warmer, with lots of detail. A surprising amount of detail. The upper mids and trebles are smoother, less "there," with less air and sparkle in the very upper end. If I listen to a song with the Zeus, what I hear a lot of is all kinds of trebly percussion from cymbals down, with really clean mids and bass that is there without being the main feature. The mids and upper end, and that incredible detail and transparency, are the main feature. With the Phantom it goes the other way, with the lower end and mids getting most of my attention. Much less transparency, much more thud and thump and push. Vocals at this point are being problematic with the Phantom on a number of the albums I listen to, with some (male and female) sounding a bit too heavy (congested?) for my taste. I find that the Zeus plays more of my music well, with me sometimes wishing for a bit more bass, but the Phantom makes some of my music not listenable. However, some albums the Zeus really has trouble with, the Phantom handles beautifully. I listen to 60's rock, which does not have a lot of sub bass. When I DO listen to jazz or music with orchestra, the Phantom is excellent. I've spoken to Jack about this, and he's checking out the Effect Audio Eros ll and Lionheart for me at the CanJam this weekend (apparently the booths are side by side) and will report back which he thinks might be the best for "adjusting" the Phantom (if either) to my tastes. It seems from what I read that the Lionheart might do the trick, but I'm waiting for his report. This is not to say the Phantom is bad, or I don't like it. I'm just finding that some tracks play well with it and others don't.
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 1:10 AM Post #12,737 of 41,717
Re Zeus (XR) vs. Phantom: very apples and oranges. The Zeus (in X mode) with Ares ll on my AK Sp1000SS is transparent, incredibly detailed in the uppers and mids, somewhat bright, nice clean bass that is there when the music presents it but that is not the feature of the IEM (it CAN fill up the sound if it's there on the track). The Phantom with Ares ll goes the other way: the bass and mids are warmer, with lots of detail. A surprising amount of detail. The upper mids and trebles are smoother, less "there," with less air and sparkle in the very upper end. If I listen to a song with the Zeus, what I hear a lot of is all kinds of trebly percussion from cymbals down, with really clean mids and bass that is there without being the main feature. The mids and upper end, and that incredible detail and transparency, are the main feature. With the Phantom it goes the other way, with the lower end and mids getting most of my attention. Much less transparency, much more thud and thump and push. Vocals at this point are being problematic with the Phantom on a number of the albums I listen to, with some (male and female) sounding a bit too heavy (congested?) for my taste. I find that the Zeus plays more of my music well, with me sometimes wishing for a bit more bass, but the Phantom makes some of my music not listenable. However, some albums the Zeus really has trouble with, the Phantom handles beautifully. I listen to 60's rock, which does not have a lot of sub bass. When I DO listen to jazz or music with orchestra, the Phantom is excellent. I've spoken to Jack about this, and he's checking out the Effect Audio Eros ll and Lionheart for me at the CanJam this weekend (apparently the booths are side by side) and will report back which he thinks might be the best for "adjusting" the Phantom (if either) to my tastes. It seems from what I read that the Lionheart might do the trick, but I'm waiting for his report. This is not to say the Phantom is bad, or I don't like it. I'm just finding that some tracks play well with it and others don't.

Awesome impressions, man! I generally agree with a lot of your thoughts, but I concur most with your sentiment that the Phantom is musically transparent, and therefore unforgiving to some degree. In my experience, the more you listen to it and acclimate to its signature, the more you can tolerate less-ideal recordings, so definintely give it more time and let us know what you think then.
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 2:30 AM Post #12,738 of 41,717
great impressions @olddude , thank you - you are solidifying even more my belief that i am fine with XR for now

Phantom is probably a sidegrade to XR (apples and oranges as you said) which seems like a luxury atm (and which i can not afford also) - maybe the demo tour will make me change my mind (?)

btw , the X switch makes the mids/lows more beefy if you want some more lows/vocals energy , while R is there when you want something more spacious

XR is now taking all of my time when i am at home - NT6 has been just my go out ciem , since i am not taking a 2K ciem out on the streets of athens
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 5:57 AM Post #12,739 of 41,717
Re Zeus (XR) vs. Phantom: very apples and oranges. The Zeus (in X mode) with Ares ll on my AK Sp1000SS is transparent, incredibly detailed in the uppers and mids, somewhat bright, nice clean bass that is there when the music presents it but that is not the feature of the IEM (it CAN fill up the sound if it's there on the track). The Phantom with Ares ll goes the other way: the bass and mids are warmer, with lots of detail. A surprising amount of detail. The upper mids and trebles are smoother, less "there," with less air and sparkle in the very upper end. If I listen to a song with the Zeus, what I hear a lot of is all kinds of trebly percussion from cymbals down, with really clean mids and bass that is there without being the main feature. The mids and upper end, and that incredible detail and transparency, are the main feature. With the Phantom it goes the other way, with the lower end and mids getting most of my attention. Much less transparency, much more thud and thump and push. Vocals at this point are being problematic with the Phantom on a number of the albums I listen to, with some (male and female) sounding a bit too heavy (congested?) for my taste. I find that the Zeus plays more of my music well, with me sometimes wishing for a bit more bass, but the Phantom makes some of my music not listenable. However, some albums the Zeus really has trouble with, the Phantom handles beautifully. I listen to 60's rock, which does not have a lot of sub bass. When I DO listen to jazz or music with orchestra, the Phantom is excellent. I've spoken to Jack about this, and he's checking out the Effect Audio Eros ll and Lionheart for me at the CanJam this weekend (apparently the booths are side by side) and will report back which he thinks might be the best for "adjusting" the Phantom (if either) to my tastes. It seems from what I read that the Lionheart might do the trick, but I'm waiting for his report. This is not to say the Phantom is bad, or I don't like it. I'm just finding that some tracks play well with it and others don't.

Can you specify the albums which pose problems with the Phamtom and the zeus so that one also makes an idea.
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 6:53 AM Post #12,740 of 41,717
Sure, though I doubt most of you will know them (OLDdude, after all). Phantom works well with the Jefferson Airplane, Bowie, Randy Newman, Quicksilver messenger Service, Aimee Mann (some can get too warm), Al Kooper, The Band, Thomas Dolby can go either way, Todd Rundgren (he mixes too bright on purpose), The Beatles (although with the 2009 remasters there is so much remastering that both Phantom and Zeus work well with them), Jimi Hendrix's first three albums really benefit from the warmth and make his guitar sounds have soooo much detail, Fleetwood Mac, The Stones, Traffic, (though some delicacy is lost, overall better), Tears For Fears, Prince, Don Henley, Sting (mastered too bright for the Zeus for the most part), The Mamas And The Papas (which the Zeus really can't handle), The Cure (most of it), Dylan (for the most part), Steely Dan (sounds perfect!) and some Pretenders (on some Pretenders tracks Chryssie Hynde's voice gets too thick). However, 10CC -the band that made "I'm Not In Love"- has terrible vocal sound (to me), Donald Fagan's albums lose all their delicacy, same with Dave Mason's Alone Together (though it sounds good if you can get past that), anything by the Byrds, J.D Souther, The Grateful Dead's more acoustic stuff thickens up too much, Joan Osborne gets almost too warm in the vocals, as does Patti Austin. The Zeus handles most everything with the exceptions of the above (most glaringly The Mamas And The Papas, which just sound wrong with it for some reason that is more than just the lack of warmth), Sometimes I want more lower end (Motown) but sometimes if I move to the Phantom it's too much low end, so the Zeus is still better (as above). For most acoustic stuff, or Folk Rock (hate that term) the Zeus is better, more upper end detail. Any of my soundtrack albums, Phantom is better.
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 8:49 AM Post #12,741 of 41,717
@olddude Great posts man. Two that I'm reading over again. I have always separated albums of liked, but poorly recorded from my well recorded stuff to audiophile ones. I usually chose the well recorded on up as my home system is reference and now my portable system is reference. I will often play the other stuff in my car or for background music. I just love music and can also listen on the go or in the shop to anything. I'm not actively listening or the tipped up highs or mids that are in your face. If there was something I really wanted to hear, I guess I'd just suck it up and use EQ. I hate digital EQ, but if something is recorded so poorly, that's better than fatiguing yourself.
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 10:30 AM Post #12,742 of 41,717
I've always put the music that doesn't sound "good" in my car system and the stuff that does in my AK and the car system. Now I may need to make up playlists or separate folders labeled Phantom and Zeus. But I'm hopeful Jack will report back re a cable adjustment that might even things out a bit.
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 12:04 PM Post #12,744 of 41,717
Probably that is the reason @Deezel177 suggested the Vantage instead of Phantom to the music listeners who want not only better details in treble and forward clear midrange but also added extended bottom (in genal for sub-and low bass)? Please correct me if I am wrong because I am on the hunt this kind of CIEMs too.

The Phantom is technically as strong (if not stronger) than the Vantage, but it's timbre-first tuning definitely makes that less apparent at first listen. The Vantage has a sparklier upper-treble, and its emphasised low-end provides the illusion of better extension. Truthfully, both IEMs extend just as well, and the Phantom can retrieve as much detail as the Vantage can; the way the Phantom was tuned simply makes that less obvious. If the Phantom had terrible low-end extension, you wouldn't be able to get both a mid-bass-focused tone and a palpable, visceral and well-resolved sub-bass. And, the Phantom's treble extension is crucial in making sure its stage remains stable and un-congested despite the accentuated mid-bass and the forwardly-placed midrange. But, if by better details, you mean more apparent clarity, than yes - you would be correct.

In case anyone's curious, I'd like to explain my stance on the Phantom's definition of transparent or reference. And, I must emphasise that this was written from the perspective of producing music; not listening to it. Typically, IEMs with neutral signatures - characterised by a linear and sufficient bass response, a leaner midrange and an upper-treble-emphasised top-end - garner these adjectives by their respective proficiencies in clarity, detail retrieval and imaging precision. I concur that these IEMs are fantastic for editing music (i.e. making cuts, adjusting fades, panning, etc.), but a large majority of music professionals simply refuse to mix and master on them. This is why tons of pros have a tonally correct or natural set of speakers and a pair of Yamaha NS-10s just beside. NS-10s are notorious for their ruthlessness when it comes to production quality. As the saying goes, "If it sounds good on the NS-10s, it can sound good anywhere." Now, the emphasis on can is to highlight uncertainty. This is because if you've done something wrong, the only thing the NS-10s tell you is, "The recording's harsh," and not much else. Similar to brighter IEMs tuned for neutrality, the only characteristic it can define within a poor recording is sibilance. But, once you look at the bigger picture, there's a massive problem within that sentiment. Common sibilance is typically located around two key ares: the upper-midrange (around 6-8kHz) and the lower-treble (around 9-11kHz). Now, that's 6 out of the theoretical 20 (most commonly 18) kHz audible to the human ear. What happens if the problem lies within the other two-thirds?

Enter: The Phantom. The Phantom maintains a balance that - to my ears - imposes no signature towards the track. Rather, much of its tonal balance relies on the music you pump through it. The Phantom obviously does have audible traits - otherwise a review would be virtually impossible - but the balance it maintains throughout its frequency response makes it significantly easier to tell how much of the sound you're hearing is from the IEM, and how much of it comes from the recording. An example would be Tom Misch's recently-released album: Geography. I've been constantly listening to it for the past two days because its funky and jazzy vibe, paired with beautiful production quality. Yet, there's a difference within the second and third track in his vocals that was instantly noticeable at first listen. The second track has an emphasis at around 2-3kHz that does not exist on the third track. There's an extra chestiness to his voice that instantly differentiates the two tracks when heard through the Phantom. This is not to discredit the IEM at all - as it was never marketed as a reference monitor in the first place - but if I had first listened to the same two tracks through the Lime Ears Model X for example (an IEM with beautiful clarity and excellent detail retrieval), it wouldn't have caught my attention at all.

So, really, this is why the Phantom is excellent as a reference piece. While the common argument I've encountered is, "It's not clean/clear enough to be a transparent tool," the Phantom's approach towards transparency is not one where all the engineer can say is, "Oh, this track's harsh and this one isn't." It's capable of telling me, "This track has a 2-3kHz bump, while the following track does not, and this album was mastered with a peak at around 12kHz, which is why the snare sounds so hollow, etc." Although this may sound like a glowing endorsement, the flip-side is that every aberration within your music (from the lowest bass note, all the way to the highest treble shriek) becomes distractingly apparent. In truth, the Phantom is the red pill. Take it, and the illusion of "All of my non-harsh music sounds great!" falls apart within an instant, or you can take the blue pill and enjoy everything without a worry in sight. As an engineer, I've been destined to prioritise the former. But, unlike in The Matrix, I always have the choice of buying the latter too. ;)
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 12:31 PM Post #12,745 of 41,717
Yep- we are using "transparent" in different ways. The Zeus is "transparent" in that I feel that I am within the music which is swirling around my head with every detail present - since it is so clear in the mids and upper end and the bass is so non-obtrusive that nothing is hidden. The Phantom to me is not like that. The timbre in the mids and lower end is solid (even though it is full of detail) and while the upper mids and upper end are there, they are not the main focus. Cotton candy vs. steak. A clear broth vs. a hearty stew. Beer vs. ale. Just two ways of presenting music. I just listened to "Here, There and Everywhere" by The Beatles and it was sublime with the Phantom. Ethereal. But the next track, "She Said, She Said," was more solid, more grounded. I've been listening to Revolver since the day it was released, and I KNOW how these songs sound, but the presentation and involvement is different with both IEM's.

Just goes to show there is no "perfect" IEM. It's a toolkit. :)
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 1:21 PM Post #12,746 of 41,717
I'm just going to say it....I have to say I'm not a fan of the final E tips that Empire Ears sent to graciously as they didn't come with my Phantoms as I got one of the earliest ones. That said, I have to say it takes away from the Phantom experience. BA timbre becomes accentuated and something happens in the upper mids to make it very thin sounding and grainy, leading to a plasticky timbre. This also thins out the soundstaging depth. This harshness with the lack of the air compared to the reference models such as the Zeus/Andromeda leave the IEM sounding a bit disjointed and muffled. I would recommend anyone with the universal versions to stick with Ortofons or Spinfits. I think they lean towards the intended signature and what make the phantoms special for me. With the final E tips, I'm more inclined to save money and go with the andromedas tbh.
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 1:32 PM Post #12,747 of 41,717
I'm just going to say it....I have to say I'm not a fan of the final E tips that Empire Ears sent to graciously as they didn't come with my Phantoms as I got one of the earliest ones. That said, I have to say it takes away from the Phantom experience. BA timbre becomes accentuated and something happens in the upper mids to make it very thin sounding and grainy, leading to a plasticky timbre. This also thins out the soundstaging depth. This harshness with the lack of the air compared to the reference models such as the Zeus/Andromeda leave the IEM sounding a bit disjointed and muffled. I would recommend anyone with the universal versions to stick with Ortofons or Spinfits. I think they lean towards the intended signature and what make the phantoms special for me. With the final E tips, I'm more inclined to save money and go with the andromedas tbh.

interesting finding, Nic's review mentioned that ortofon and spiral dots are closest to the intended tuning with spinfits being the least close. i demmed the phantoms using both the spinfits and spiral dots and spinfits made it lose its density and richness imo
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 3:07 PM Post #12,748 of 41,717
Nice call! Ashamed to say I hadn't tried swapping tips, as the E's were just so perfect on the Zeus. But I just put on some medium SpinFits and they really make a difference. Takes away some of the heaviness, the soundstage becomes, if not transparent, translucent, and gives me quite a bit more upper mids and upper treble. The bass is still there, there is still some punch to the ears, but it's not such a wall of warm sound. Now the Phantom sounds like a closer relative of the Zeus, not something completely different. I guess I won't know what you folks who have the custom are hearing, but this is, to me, an improvement, and certainly expands the tracks I can listen to exponentially. I went through a bunch of tracks just now, and almost all improved (though some still call out for that heavier warmth). Thanks for posting!
 
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Apr 14, 2018 at 3:26 PM Post #12,749 of 41,717
I meant to say spiral dots instead of spinfits. Spinfits are still an improvement over final e tips which sound sterile. For a more airy trebly sig I use the spinfits. For organic I use spiral dots. The problem with spiral dots is that it loses a bit of air but keeps the upper mids strong, leading to a good tone, but with harshness/siblance esp in male vocals while female vocals are subdued. Still not perfect but the more I listen, I wish I could get rid of the harshness in the upper mids, while being organic.
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 4:05 PM Post #12,750 of 41,717
The Phantom is technically as strong (if not stronger) than the Vantage, but it's timbre-first tuning definitely makes that less apparent at first listen. The Vantage has a sparklier upper-treble, and its emphasised low-end provides the illusion of better extension. Truthfully, both IEMs extend just as well, and the Phantom can retrieve as much detail as the Vantage can; the way the Phantom was tuned simply makes that less obvious. If the Phantom had terrible low-end extension, you wouldn't be able to get both a mid-bass-focused tone and a palpable, visceral and well-resolved sub-bass. And, the Phantom's treble extension is crucial in making sure its stage remains stable and un-congested despite the accentuated mid-bass and the forwardly-placed midrange. But, if by better details, you mean more apparent clarity, than yes - you would be correct.

In case anyone's curious, I'd like to explain my stance on the Phantom's definition of transparent or reference. And, I must emphasise that this was written from the perspective of producing music; not listening to it. Typically, IEMs with neutral signatures - characterised by a linear and sufficient bass response, a leaner midrange and an upper-treble-emphasised top-end - garner these adjectives by their respective proficiencies in clarity, detail retrieval and imaging precision. I concur that these IEMs are fantastic for editing music (i.e. making cuts, adjusting fades, panning, etc.), but a large majority of music professionals simply refuse to mix and master on them. This is why tons of pros have a tonally correct or natural set of speakers and a pair of Yamaha NS-10s just beside. NS-10s are notorious for their ruthlessness when it comes to production quality. As the saying goes, "If it sounds good on the NS-10s, it can sound good anywhere." Now, the emphasis on can is to highlight uncertainty. This is because if you've done something wrong, the only thing the NS-10s tell you is, "The recording's harsh," and not much else. Similar to brighter IEMs tuned for neutrality, the only characteristic it can define within a poor recording is sibilance. But, once you look at the bigger picture, there's a massive problem within that sentiment. Common sibilance is typically located around two key ares: the upper-midrange (around 6-8kHz) and the lower-treble (around 9-11kHz). Now, that's 6 out of the theoretical 20 (most commonly 18) kHz audible to the human ear. What happens if the problem lies within the other two-thirds?

Enter: The Phantom. The Phantom maintains a balance that - to my ears - imposes no signature towards the track. Rather, much of its tonal balance relies on the music you pump through it. The Phantom obviously does have audible traits - otherwise a review would be virtually impossible - but the balance it maintains throughout its frequency response makes it significantly easier to tell how much of the sound you're hearing is from the IEM, and how much of it comes from the recording. An example would be Tom Misch's recently-released album: Geography. I've been constantly listening to it for the past two days because its funky and jazzy vibe, paired with beautiful production quality. Yet, there's a difference within the second and third track in his vocals that was instantly noticeable at first listen. The second track has an emphasis at around 2-3kHz that does not exist on the third track. There's an extra chestiness to his voice that instantly differentiates the two tracks when heard through the Phantom. This is not to discredit the IEM at all - as it was never marketed as a reference monitor in the first place - but if I had first listened to the same two tracks through the Lime Ears Model X for example (an IEM with beautiful clarity and excellent detail retrieval), it wouldn't have caught my attention at all.

So, really, this is why the Phantom is excellent as a reference piece. While the common argument I've encountered is, "It's not clean/clear enough to be a transparent tool," the Phantom's approach towards transparency is not one where all the engineer can say is, "Oh, this track's harsh and this one isn't." It's capable of telling me, "This track has a 2-3kHz bump, while the following track does not, and this album was mastered with a peak at around 12kHz, which is why the snare sounds so hollow, etc." Although this may sound like a glowing endorsement, the flip-side is that every aberration within your music (from the lowest bass note, all the way to the highest treble shriek) becomes distractingly apparent. In truth, the Phantom is the red pill. Take it, and the illusion of "All of my non-harsh music sounds great!" falls apart within an instant, or you can take the blue pill and enjoy everything without a worry in sight. As an engineer, I've been destined to prioritise the former. But, unlike in The Matrix, I always have the choice of buying the latter too. :wink:

So I went all in on Tom Misch. I just started to stream Geography. DAMN dude. We NEED to hang out in NYC and club it. I can't wait to get out of the hospital in a couple of weeks so I can stream this on my MAIN 2 channel system. For those who feel Phantom doesn't give you deep bass, I respectfully would disagree wiht you. This is what I'm listening to tonight! It's been a tough day of only rehab Daniel, so THANKS....

Oh yea, all that other stuff you posted about hz and hearing and ......great stuff too. I'll read it all again after jamming to more Tom Misch! Groovy many. Peace OUT.
 

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