Empire Ears - Discussion & Impressions (Formerly EarWerkz)
Oct 14, 2021 at 10:23 AM Post #33,601 of 40,205
All this talk of midrange this and treble that made me a bit batty today, so I decided to take a break from testing and note-taking and just kick back with EVO and one of my all-time favourite albums.


I've been listening to this album since it was r
I like this album when i was in high scool. Lol
 
Last edited:
Oct 14, 2021 at 11:16 AM Post #33,602 of 40,205
The long wait is over 👌
C4575C6A-D613-48C0-8E4D-A65F0F123171.jpeg
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 11:42 AM Post #33,603 of 40,205
Somebody mentioned evo have even less bass than odin
To my ears EVO has more AND better quality bass (faster, richer, more textured, more nuanced, more detailed) than LX and IE 900, which in my book makes it the best bass I've heard in an IEM by some distance. It also has a physical viscerality that neither of the previous bass champions can match, without any bloom, bleed or fatigue (for me anyway). From what I understand Odin has excellent bass quality (possibly even matching EVO since they both use the same drivers) but much LESS quantity (which disqualifies it as a basshead IEM in my book). EVO also has Weapon X, which further shapes and enhances the bass.

We can debate every other FR ad nauseum, with good reason, but It's no spoiler to say that, in my opinion, EVO is the gold standard for IEM bass.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 11:51 AM Post #33,604 of 40,205
Lol, I thought Crinacle of all people would have the foresight to realize that his GRAS measurement rig is not the right tool to measure a BCD IEM, unless EE says otherwise. Maybe he'll mention this in his review though, looking forward to that.

It would be very cool to see an Empire Ears in-house FR graph of the EVO using proper measuring equipment to accurately capture the BCD effects. Specifically, how this compares to the air conduction graphs.

The graphs are probably not that big of a deal at the end of the day, but for the few people over-obsessed with accuracy and precision it is an interesting experiment,

Also appreciating the varied reception to the EVO, it helps paint a more honest picture of the EVO experience

I don’t think a lot of the “well-known” people that measure actually has the equipment to do so.

I do hope to see if Jude’s measurement rig could do it. If only I had the budget I would love to have the same equipment as Jude 😂

But yeah, just take the measurements you see with a huge grain of Himalayan salt.

We really still have no idea how the BCD actually works but the measurements should indicate as a reference of how an IEM is tuned.

And as the graph does show, even without these measurements earlier, the upper-mids do seem to be more elevated compared to the LX and even slightly over the LXSE. We gotta also consider the fact that the EVO has the “least” amount of bass energy among the 3. So I can see why the upper-mids would be heard the way it is. Also, the reason why people didn’t have much problems with the LXSE even though it also had quite a bit more upper-mids and somewhat “lesser” bass presence than the LX, it comes down to the treble. The LXSE definitely shows more treble energy than both the LX and EVO, thus evens the overall presentation.

I do wish I’d have access to the LXSE to fully compare the three Legends and add in the Odin to the mix just to see how much of the Odin DNA is in that upper-mids since I absolutely love the Odin’s upper-mids maybe only second to the Wraith’s.

I have tried the LX again not too long ago and while I can see and hear its charms, it just definitely wasn’t for me. Tho the LXSE is definitely closer to my cup of tea (just basing it on the graphs as reference compared to the LX), with the impressions so far, I believe the EVO just might be another EE favourite of mine.

I need to address this real quick. Don't want misinformation to get out of hand especially within the measurements space.

I have no idea what equipment the Empire Ears team are using for R&D and I don't expect them to share that. There are definitely specific equipment to measure bone conduction effects (look up "artificial mastoid"). These are designed for the medical industry and since the usecase for my measurement database is extremely limited (arguably not as useful as people think since you'd need to display bone conduction measurements separately from acoustic FR measurements), I don't see a need to invest in one myself just to measure a couple of earphones.

Again, for maximum "accuracy" you'd need two measurements, one of bone conduction effects and another of acoustic frequency response. I've provided the latter, but that doesn't mean that my data is useless. Simply incomplete.

Now I'm fairly certain that the Empire Ears would have an artificial mastoid in their arsenal for R&D purposes, but one thing that people need to note is that the Type 5128 that Jude has pivoted towards does not actually contain a Type 4930 artificial mastoid (at least according to the user manuals that I'm reading right now). Again, this kind of equipment is extremely niche, and even when the data is available it's not very easy to interpret without a slew of prior knowledge. Hell, I myself struggle to read force level measurements and relate it back to subjective listening, but to be fair I also haven't really looked into it too deeply.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 1:11 PM Post #33,605 of 40,205
What would we say about Fineas and His sister? One the current biggest pop artists, but most of their songs are straight from a computer and recorded wherever they feel so.

I know a lot of people here still listen, like and even test gear with their songs.
He uses Logic Pro X as his DAW (which in the genre is less used than something like Ableton and Pro Tools), but there are also real guitars as well as other things recorded with a TLM-103 microphone. There is heavy MIDI in his work- digital writing/recording doesn't always equate to bad, and he's a really good example. His mixes are insanely good and they are mastered just as well. He's a pop producer who understands how to play with dynamic range and compression well. (This has nothing to do with IEMs, I'm just saying that digital being analogous to bad is just not always true). Also, just to throw it out there, his mixing headphones are ATH-M50x.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 1:12 PM Post #33,606 of 40,205
I know someone already responded to this, but this thread is on fire!

Anyway, responding to your comment; that's what I thought at first. But try an online sine wave generator and sweep through the frequencies and see what you think then. You might be surprised.

Like this one, for example : https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/


Edit: Warning : Don't jack up your volume when you get up into the highest octave to compensate for what you may not be able to hear. I don't want to be responsible for you blowing out your equipment or get all the pets in the area howling.
I went through things like that in the past. But it more down to what is agreed as general consensus to call a certain frequency.

And while bass is usually the most varied and debated thing. Such as where subbass ends and midbass starts or lower mids etc. But its not far off usually.
But something like upper mids, is usually 2-4khz give or take 1khz either end, in most literature i have checked.

So im sticking to that ni way i will ever call 700hz upper mids lol. I have played with EQ and other tonal setting many times, correctly or not i have just settled with most common descriptions of FRs to avoid confusion.😉
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 1:18 PM Post #33,607 of 40,205
To my ears EVO has more AND better quality bass (faster, richer, more textured, more nuanced, more detailed) than LX and IE 900, which in my book makes it the best bass I've heard in an IEM by some distance. It also has a physical viscerality that neither of the previous bass champions can match, without any bloom, bleed or fatigue (for me anyway). From what I understand Odin has excellent bass quality (possibly even matching EVO since they both use the same drivers) but much LESS quantity (which disqualifies it as a basshead IEM in my book). EVO also has Weapon X, which further shapes and enhances the bass.

We can debate every other FR ad nauseum, with good reason, but It's no spoiler to say that, in my opinion, EVO is the gold standard for IEM bass.
I agree. To my ear, EVO is THE bass king. Nothing else is even close.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 1:23 PM Post #33,608 of 40,205
I went through things like that in the past. But it more down to what is agreed as general consensus to call a certain frequency.

And while bass is usually the most varied and debated thing. Such as where subbass ends and midbass starts or lower mids etc. But its not far off usually.
But something like upper mids, is usually 2-4khz give or take 1khz either end, in most literature i have checked.

So im sticking to that ni way i will ever call 700hz upper mids lol. I have played with EQ and other tonal setting many times, correctly or not i have just settled with most common descriptions of FRs to avoid confusion.😉
I think the consensus on head fi would be that upper mids is indeed between 2-4khz +/- 1k. It's in the Pinna or ear gain region. Probably ended up there because of it so easy to pick out on a frequency response graph. This chart pretty closely maps how I define the various terms.

92441
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 2:29 PM Post #33,611 of 40,205
You mean you can afford kids AND this hobbie? :astonished: We never had kids 'cause I knew they would be neglected. :smile:
You can when they have left the nest and college is paid for and they are out. Well, assuming they have a job.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 3:05 PM Post #33,612 of 40,205
Bingo...I actually wrote something on those lines and left it off. That's no problem to test gear using whatever song you prefer, because you know that song, you know how it should sound, bad or good. that's where we know what to expect and we can say that something is sounding different from what we expect.

Bands and songs that were mentioned, like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, adding Black Sabbath and others, every decade or so they release a new master, so what master are we talking about?

Too many variables...

Partially disagree... I really like their technics. But if you watch one of their documentaries, they explain a lot how they record and produce their songs. they have songs recorded on a hotel room, on a tour bus, majority of their songs are produced on Fineas bedroom. Even though it sounds amazing. They make the best of what they have and turns out amazing.

Though I'm not using Led Zepplin, Pink Floyd, or Black Sabbath to evaluate, those are strictly for pleasure. I do use Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, or the Berlin Symphony, this is what mean by acoustic music. Oh and there's only one “Master” (hence the name master) when you see a remaster, it's a remix of the tracks from the master. There's no fundamental change to the” sounds” of Jimmy Page’s guitar, beyond emphasis, or “positioning” in the sound field, besides hardcore fans know every lick he plays, and a significant deviation or modernization with compression to make it more “exciting,” would be rejected.

Saying that, I was wrong yesterday, and am guilty of music snobbish of the highest order, @aaf evo , I owe you an apology. The first rule is to use what you know, intimately, for evaluations, if it's trance and EDM, then you should use that. Now that I'm hearing the Odin, I'm loving it, which may be why I love the EVO. We all hear differently, like different music, have a variety of what we like, listen to what brings you joy, period, and I'll put my snobbery in check.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 3:08 PM Post #33,613 of 40,205
I'm not doing that, no one knows exactly what an EDM recording sounded like when it was being performed, except for the handful of people in the booth. Hell, the “musicians” may never have seen each other, much less heard the recording as a whole. Yes, I'm sure bass was tested on amplified music, but to try and develop an audio product based on artificial, highly manipulated music is a fool's errand. There's plenty of synth-driven bass on quality recordings, but they are few and far between.

As far as their tastes, in music or equipment, it's their taste period, meaning listen to what you enjoy, on the equipment you like. Aaf evo went a step further providing his music, where he was hearing it, that takes balls, and I admire him for doing so, so I'm not judging him. My point again is that there's broad agreement, with years of data on how a Steinway, or a Stradivari sound, the sample of highly manipulated, electronic music is a sample of one.
EDM is all about the experience and your emotions. The Odin's and the IER-M9 have been the 2 best IEM's in the last few years that have done a good job of letting me experience it. I would even argue the Odin comes really close to recreating the feeling of being in the middle of the dance floor at a club with a good sound system.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 3:30 PM Post #33,614 of 40,205
EDM is all about the experience and your emotions. The Odin's and the IER-M9 have been the 2 best IEM's in the last few years that have done a good job of letting me experience it. I would even argue the Odin comes really close to recreating the feeling of being in the middle of the dance floor at a club with a good sound system.
Matches my experience 100%. The ODIN is extremely enjoyable for EDM out of the box. Especially for EDM even more so with a little EQing, makes them even shine better!
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 3:41 PM Post #33,615 of 40,205
Matches my experience 100%. The ODIN is extremely enjoyable for EDM out of the box. Especially for EDM even more so with a little EQing, makes them even shine better!
I do agree the Odin is great for EDM - it does need a little more sub bass quantity, but the quality is something else and really enjoyable!
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top