[twister6]

  I doubt anybody that has heard and compared a lot of gears, would argue that the 901S is among the best daps - single ended. Yet it improves significantly balanced. The same is true of the Plenue S. 
 
The precision in soundstage, the more holographic and 3D imaging, is not 'a gimmick'. I let my friends that have zero audiophile experience listen to the difference, and they are mindblown. It's that obvious and easy to hear. I can't speak for the AK daps of course.

 
You have to try Lotoo PAW Gold.  3.5mm SE only, but soundstage is more expanded than balanced outputs of AK120ii, N5, PAW 5k, Opus#1, and L3.  The L3 balanced comes very close, but still can't reach the same level of width and transparency.  Never tried HM901S though.  Also heard from a trusted source that PS sounds very close to LPG.
 
Regarding issues with 2.5mm trrs, yes I have an issue with AK120ii after a year of use, and also heard quite a few negative comments about DP-X1, but all of my other 2.5mm TRRS DAPs are perfectly fine which suggests not the problem with a port but rather with how manufacturer solders and secures it to pwb.

 

[Mimouille]

Flinkenick and others. I had the 901 for years, I always preferred the Minibox and discrete cards to the balanced. By quite a margin. Of course if you compared to the standard card, balanced is much better, but it is not because it is balanced, the amp itself is much better.

You cannot compare balanced to SE and say balanced is better if other parameters are changing as well...I mean the reasoning is quite straight forward.

On the P1, the balanced out has a higher output power.

I agree with kkcc, now it is just a matter of marketing. And quite sad too.

 

[wolfen68]

Not sure how important it is to have a direct balanced output on a portable DAP, especially if it has a digital out and I can utilize a balanced extra component of my choosing.  However after using an SR71B balanced out for some years, I can attest that a balanced signal makes some headphones really sing.  

 

[jamato8]

  Not sure how important it is to have a direct balanced output on a portable DAP, especially if it has a digital out and I can utilize a balanced extra component of my choosing.  However after using an SR71B balanced out for some years, I can attest that a balanced signal makes some headphones really sing.  

I never enjoyed the HD650 very much, out of anything until I ran them balanced. They opened up and sounded so much better to me that they are like a totally different headphone. 

 

[kkcc]

The precision in soundstage, the more holographic and 3D imaging, is not 'a gimmick'. I let my friends that have zero audiophile experience listen to the difference, and they are mindblown. It's that obvious and easy to hear. I can't speak for the AK daps of course.

This is where the confusion lies - comparing apple to Orange.

As Mimouille mentioned, for HM901, The Balanced Amp Card sound a lot better than the Stock Amp Card because they are TOTALLY DIFFERENT AMP circuit design and components, not simply because they one is SE and one is Balanced.

I still have in my posession 7 different amp cards for my 901, and I still prefer the Discrete over the Balance Card. The difference is the entire amp, not the output jacks.

For AK or Onkyo etc, with a non replaceable amp section, there is really no reason (other than marketing) why they cannot provide very very similar, if not the same, performance using standard 3.5mm trs output. An example is my Woo Audio wa22. It is a fully balanced amp but support the same sound quality via its xlr balance out or the 6.35mm single end output. Jack Woo himself even confirmed the balanced jack is "just for convenience for folks who have balanced xlr cables".

I just hope more makers call AK and etc out for their marketing gimmicks. Really need to applause Chord's Rob and John to do just that.

For ibasso, I still think it is wiser for them to provide 2.5mm trrs together with normal 3.5mm jacks just to capture those upgrading from ak100ii or ak120ii or dp-x1.

 

[wolfen68]

  I never enjoyed the HD650 very much, out of anything until I ran them balanced. They opened up and sounded so much better to me that they are like a totally different headphone. 

 
That was exactly one of the phones I had in mind...as well as the RS-1. 

 

[nakedtoes]

For me personally using the HM901S i very much prefer the SQ from the balanced card compared to discrete and minibox gold very much due to the soundstage. Using Single ended with TG334 +000 cable and i am going to "balanced" my 000 cable until i read mixed view about SE and balanced from many senior members...... So should i still send my 000 cable for re termination?

 

[flinkenick]

Mimouille and kkcc; the only confusion appears to be in the interpretation of what I said. I am not comparing different cards. I am comparing balanced out to the single out of the same balanced card, i.e. with a balanced cable. I thought this was clear, but maybe I should have specified this more explicitly. And to add to that; I am by no means implying that a balanced dap is by definition better than a different single ended dap.

 

Concerning the DP-X1, I've always been sceptical about the implementation of the mobile ESS9018k2m dac. I can't imagine it having a top tier performance; but maybe that's the reason it improves balanced. I recently read a Headfonia review saying AK daps have a different tonality between balanced and single ended, something about less bass in one of the outputs. But again, I personally can't judge on the Onkyo and AK's. If there's either a big difference or no difference in quality between balanced and single ended with those daps, whatever the issue seems to be with them, it doesn't mean that this is also true for the Plenue S, 901S or the upcoming DX200. I find that in my daps, the improvement of a balanced cable is more than significant even though single ended is by no means lacking. If this is not the case in your experience, it could be specific to the equipment you tested.

 

I think there is a very good reason why balanced has improved effects; because of the separated L/R channels. That’s why it applies most specifically to soundstage dimensions, depth perception and imaging. For this reason a balanced termination, when applied properly, has an advantage over single ended and you can’t simply just choose to make single ended as good as balanced. I don't think you can generalize and say balanced is per definition just a gimmick or marketing; this implies that all manufacturers and people that listen to balanced are in some collective state of placebo, imagining some effects that obviously aren't there. It's the same frustrating conversation about cables. If there were no differences and people were truly imaging things, it would be impossible to discuss effects and reach consensus on a shared experience. Because what is the chance that I'm 'imagining' my cable/balanced experience exactly the same as someone else. Yet I have a wide group of friends that I can discuss cables etc. with - our preferences might be different, but we hear the differences very similarly. It could be that some people are less sensitive or trained to hear sonic differences. But in that case, it’s still possible that other people can hear differences. For instance, I have reasonable technical listening skills. But I don’t even come close to some of my good friends. That doesn’t make them liars – it makes me humble. The fact that I can’t multiply 126 x 367 in my head, doesn’t mean that by definition, nobody on the planet can. 

 

[flinkenick]

   
You have to try Lotoo PAW Gold.  3.5mm SE only, but soundstage is more expanded than balanced outputs of AK120ii, N5, PAW 5k, Opus#1, and L3.  The L3 balanced comes very close, but still can't reach the same level of width and transparency.  Never tried HM901S though.  Also heard from a trusted source that PS sounds very close to LPG.
 
Regarding issues with 2.5mm trrs, yes I have an issue with AK120ii after a year of use, and also heard quite a few negative comments about DP-X1, but all of my other 2.5mm TRRS DAPs are perfectly fine which suggests not the problem with a port but rather with how manufacturer solders and secures it to pwb.

I have to admit the LPG is at the very top of my wishlist, competing with the SE 5-way ult But I've been hearing mixed impressions about its stage dimensions; I was under the impression that it is not very wide, but is very deep, which ultimately aids in separation. I think the pcm1792 dac generally has a very deep presentation, this is also the case with the P1 and PS. There was recently a discussion about the LPG's stage here.
 
I spoke to someone a while back that that has both the LPG and 901S; if I summarize it correctly, the LPG is slightly ahead in resolution, transparency and tonal accuracy. The 901S on the other hand has slightly bigger stage dimensions (single ended), and better dynamics. But both have a very forward and 'aggressive' or exciting presentation, compared to the more laidback AK's. 
 
I find this chart helpful; keep in mind the 901S is very different than the 901 in tonality, resolution and transparency. But dynamics and stage dimensions should be the same.

 

[therealbene]

I think, it should be straightforward to create an adapter from 3.5 trrs balanced output mm to 2.5 trrs that doesn't occupy more space than the 3.5 trrs cavity itself. Of course, advanced artisan metallurgy and CNC would be involved to create the best sound. By using 3.5 trrs and selling 2.5 adapter separately, iBasso can earn itself a chance to create both more reliable connection and opportunity to earn more money at once!

 

[MikePortnoy]

Nice discussion mates.  
 
As my ideas, I have to say that LPG doesn't focus on stage width. It puts instruments in large parts on the stage. It doesn't give up the ideal and natural note thickness and that results in a little congested instrument placement. Of course, it has a very good separation, but I cannot say that it has a super airy and very wide stage structure. Instead of creating a big stage by tuning low frequency and/or note structure, LPG does focus on resolution and tonality.
 
As for balanced output, dap A balanced output may be better than dap B single ended output. Or dap A single ended output may be better than dap B balanced output. So there is no exact winner here. Each dap should be reviewed according to their own abilities.
 
The balanced output of dap A should be better than its own single ended output . Otherwise, it would be meaningless.  

 

[Paul - iBasso]

 
The DX200 board.

 

[HiFiChris]

   

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 
 
The DX200 board.

 
 
So the Micro SD slots seem to have moved to the right upper side, and the cutout left with the connector thingie could actually be for a volume dial. Interesting. 

Could be actually also the other way round if the screen was at the opposite site.
 
Oooh, and I see a flash memory chip with 16 GB of memory capacity, so it could very well be that the user-acessible internal storage is coming back (for streaming, music apps and music). Nice.

 

[Signal2Noise]

^
Considering Paul posted the pic your spoiler warning isn't really a spoiler, Chris.

 

[HiFiChris]

Don't judge me, @Signal2Noise, editing the post on a mobile device is tricky enough.