Does a DAC make a giant difference?

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Oh, well then case closed. Because the only thing that determines the sound of a component is whether THD is audible or not. ::rolls eyes::

Among other measurements like frequency response, cross talk, noise, etc., most of which that Behringer does quite well. The worst thing about it is its 43 ohm headphone output impedance, which doesn't matter if you're using the line out.
 
Why, what else determines sound quality (besides, of course, the price of the component)?

 

[tvrboy]

Quote:

Dave, there's an avalanche of new chips and designs every year. As long as the measurements are good and the distortion is below what people can hear, it doesn't really matter how you configure it. If all you need is a 1,000 square foot garage, you can make it out of brick, wood or concrete blocks. It'll be 1,000 square feet no matter which way you build it.

The problem was solved years ago. New chips come out because they're smaller, more power efficient, etc. New designs get churned out because the marketing department knows consumers want something "new." The same happens with most of audio. Reshuffle the deck, put it in a new case, have the audio rags and reviewers proclaim "night and day" differences from the old model, lather, rinse, repeat.

You can get great quality for next to nothing today.

Status symbols and snob appeal remain quite expensive, though.

 
Your analogy is wrong. The actual DAC chip is just one part of the machine. Things like power supply, PCB layout and analog output stage also matter as well. There are audible, easily measurable differences between good and poor quality DACs. For example, I have some info about this from the applications engineer at Benchmark...anybody can PM me if they want it. It's true that the differences between high-quality DACs are usually inaudible, and a high-quality DAC doesn't have to cost a fortune. But not all DACs are the same, and a $30 Coby DVD player does not perform the same as a high-quality DAC. There are so many ripoffs in audio, some people think any digital player over $30 or $50 is a ripoff too. I can understand that defensive mindset but it's not true in this case.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Among other measurements like frequency response, cross talk, noise, etc., most of which that Behringer does quite well. The worst thing about it is its 43 ohm headphone output impedance, which doesn't matter if you're using the line out.
 
Why, what else determines sound quality (besides, of course, the price of the component)?

Just about everything determines sound quality, right down to the printed circuit boards. Take John Kenny's modified Hiface converter. You have a product in the Hiface that is very affordable, and produces "decent" sound, but a number of concessions were made to hit that price level, and then there are things that are just plain design flaws. Good sound requires nice clean power, and the USB bus doesn't supply clean power. Some of the much more expensive converters on the market such as the Audiophilleo or the Diverter 192 use filtration and regulation to try and deal with the crappy USB power, but the Hiface doesn't really have anything like that because M2Tech wanted a bargain price - so that noisy power goes straight to the very sensitive clocks. 
 
The first step to improving the Hiface's sound is getting rid of that USB power, which John achieves with the use of batteries. Companies like Red Wine and Empirical are big believers in battery power, and you'll also find it in some of the TOTL stuff from Rowland and EDGE. A very high quality linear regulated power supply can achieve the same goal. This kind of thing costs money though, which is why the Isabellina costs more than fifty bucks.

 

[Currawong]

Does a DAC make a giant difference? A giant difference in what? 
 
A DAC can, by way of its design, sound tonally different or it can be have lower distortion (across the entire frequency spectrum, not just measured at one frequency as regular specifications usually only tell us) and be more resolving of detail or, importantly, its performance can be more linear in how it inputs and converts digital data as well as how it outputs the resulting analog signal into connected devices.  My purely subjective impression when a DAC is significantly better in a set-up than another is that without altering the tone in any way (or only very minimally) I feel the same listening to the music as I do when I put glasses on and everything becomes more clear and I can connect with the intent of the performer(s) better. That, if the recording quality is good, makes it worth it for me.
 
To answer the literal question asked by the OP: In my experience, I wouldn't hold much hope in finding a significant difference from a DAC much less than $350 as, to keep the price down, too many compromises in the design that would prevent improvements such as I've described, would likely prevent the purchase being of any value.

 

[livewire]

Bravo!
I totally agree with what was said in the last three posts.
 
I'm curious about that Behringer device. I may get one just for S&Gs. (and prolly take one for the team)
A year ago, I bought something similar at a similar price on ebay to use as a USB to Toslink converter
for my mid-fi dac and the results were horrible. It was USB powered and was limited to 44.1K, I could deal with that at the time.
But it had repeated sound dropouts and the included software just plain sucked. You get what you pay for.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Just about everything determines sound quality, right down to the printed circuit boards. Take John Kenny's modified Hiface converter. You have a product in the Hiface that is very affordable, and produces "decent" sound, but a number of concessions were made to hit that price level, and then there are things that are just plain design flaws. Good sound requires nice clean power, and the USB bus doesn't supply clean power. Some of the much more expensive converters on the market such as the Audiophilleo or the Diverter 192 use filtration and regulation to try and deal with the crappy USB power, but the Hiface doesn't really have anything like that because M2Tech wanted a bargain price - so that noisy power goes straight to the very sensitive clocks. 
 
The first step to improving the Hiface's sound is getting rid of that USB power, which John achieves with the use of batteries. Companies like Red Wine and Empirical are big believers in battery power, and you'll also find it in some of the TOTL stuff from Rowland and EDGE. A very high quality linear regulated power supply can achieve the same goal. This kind of thing costs money though, which is why the Isabellina costs more than fifty bucks.

But wouldn't power issues, design flaws, and choice of circuit boards all ultimately translate to different levels of noise, distortion, frequency response, etc.?
 
Why would two DACs which measure identically sound different just because of the way they reached those measurements? What is ultimately affected by choice of internal components that we aren't measuring?

 

[Trasselkalle]

What's the measurement for soundstage?
 
What's the measurement for detailing?
 
Quote:

But wouldn't power issues, design flaws, and choice of circuit boards all ultimately translate to different levels of noise, distortion, frequency response, etc.?
 
Why would two DACs which measure identically sound different just because of the way they reached those measurements? What is ultimately affected by choice of internal components that we aren't measuring?

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

What's the measurement for soundstage?
 
What's the measurement for detailing?

Neither are directly affected by DACs. Both can be affected to a degree by frequency response and distortion.

 

[Trasselkalle]

How can detailing not be affected by the DAC? Where was this conclusively shown?
 
Edit: I should add that I sincerely do not mean to 'shoot down' your arguments. I'm merely trying to rhetorically question if there really is any measurable and reliable quantitative results that point towards how to completely analyze and understand that which is possible to perceive (i.e. while excluding psychological factors that affect that which we consciously believe to be aware of) depending on individual differences and actual perception. Even in quantitative methods, new methodologies emerge frequently to improve the precision on that which is measured. Even Einstein was proven wrong in the end (and he'd probably be the first one to admit this). I have a hard time believing frequency response, signal-to-noise ratio, and distortion is all there is to sound. If it was, what is the formula for sound A vs. sound B?
 
Quote:

Neither are directly affected by DACs. Both can be affected to a degree by frequency response and distortion.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

How can detailing not be affected by the DAC? Where was this conclusively shown?

Because even the most basic of DACs will accurately reconstruct an analog signal from a 16/44.1 digital file if there is no noise or distortion added. Of course, there always is. It's not like a headphone driver, which can only move so fast and the level of detail it retrieves is limited by mass and acceleration.
 
Where was it conclusively shown that DACs do affect detail?

 

[Trasselkalle]

Quote:

 
Where was it conclusively shown that DACs do affect detail?

Never. That is why neither side knows and both sides believe, and subsequently why it is best to be careful with making strong arguments in either direction.
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

But wouldn't power issues, design flaws, and choice of circuit boards all ultimately translate to different levels of noise, distortion, frequency response, etc.?
 
Why would two DACs which measure identically sound different just because of the way they reached those measurements? What is ultimately affected by choice of internal components that we aren't measuring?

Ask Mark Levinson. The 360 DAC and the 360S DAC are built differently, and the S has upgrades in a number of areas. The S also sounds noticeably better. The difference is not incredible, but it's there. Measurable differences between the two? ZERO. Some like to point at THD or IMD or Crosstalk figures as the be all, end all. They are not. Put down the scopes and tools and just listen for a darn minute.

 

[Tilpo]

I noticed a significant difference between my DAC and the standard Realtek chipset on my motherboard.
Details have increased a bit, background noise was reduced to something close to inaudible, and I don't hear noise when my computer is pondering deeply.

That does not mean to say it was a huge upgrade. A necessary one, but I regret paying $200 for it. (I have the Audio-GD NFB-12). That is to say, I could easily have settled for less to have more money saved up for a possible future headphone upgrade.
In short it is important to have a DAC better that the crappy one on your motherboard, but you should indeed refrain from spending a lot of money on it since the improvements won't be large at all.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Ask Mark Levinson. The 360 DAC and the 360S DAC are built differently, and the S has upgrades in a number of areas. The S also sounds noticeably better. The difference is not incredible, but it's there. Measurable differences between the two? ZERO. Some like to point at THD or IMD or Crosstalk figures as the be all, end all. They are not. Put down the scopes and tools and just listen for a darn minute.

Could you link me to these measurements so I can look at them? I can only find the ones Stereophile did for the regular 360.

 

[Satellite_6]

Quote:

I noticed a significant difference between my DAC and the standard Realtek chipset on my motherboard.
Details have increased a bit, background noise was reduced to something close to inaudible, and I don't hear noise when my computer is pondering deeply.

That does not mean to say it was a huge upgrade. A necessary one, but I regret paying $200 for it. (I have the Audio-GD NFB-12). That is to say, I could easily have settled for less to have more money saved up for a possible future headphone upgrade.
In short it is important to have a DAC better that the crappy one on your motherboard, but you should indeed refrain from spending a lot of money on it since the improvements won't be large at all.

Right on.