[Blitzula]

I hear no difference between woodies and the stock grill. Can you objectively prove that there is such a difference, or is it due to your own psychological factors?

 

[tiberian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swalker Actually to a clumsy person it happens more than you'd think.. Just ask some of my old headphones I seriously doubt Sennheiser made it replacable because the cable was not good enough. Did they make the plastic/metal grill of HD580/600/650 easily replacable because they knew some people would not like the sound of the metal grill and would go out buy woodies to attach in the place instead?

the stock cable is more than adequate for 90% of the buyers (with cheapo dvd players or sound cards), most people don't have a highly resolving $3000 rig. i guess that's the reason behind...the cable business has been around for a LONG time and sennheiser knows that.

 

[swalker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula I hear no difference between woodies and the stock grill. Can you objectively prove that there is such a difference. or is it due to your own psychological factors?

Actually that would be very easily proven with a very scientific testing. I'll go do a blind testing with my HD650's with celotape blocking the grill and without it.

In seriousness, I'm of the opinion any change in the transducer is far more significant than any change in the electronics given the electronics are of a "good enough" quality.

EDIT : forgot the smiley

 

[stet]

could it be that Senn (and any other company with detachable cables) realizes that not all people agree on sonic quality? As a really low-end comparison, how about the choice between Grado pads? What was it, a difference in preference btw. Joe and John Grado whether flats or bowls should be the stock pads? So maybe it's not that Senn engineers were forced to cut back and use chicken wire (LOL!), but that's what was deemed best for the phones.

Not that I've ever compared such phones/cables myslef, but I'm looking into getting HD25-1s, and I've read a bunch of people who rave about and recommend them just going off stock impressions.

 

[tiberian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula I hear no difference between woodies and the stock grill. Can you objectively prove that there is such a difference, or is it due to your own psychological factors?

i can't help you then, go check your ears.

 

[swalker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stet could it be that Senn (and any other company with detachable cables) realizes that not all people agree on sonic quality? As a really low-end comparison, how about the choice between Grado pads? What was it, a difference in preference btw. Joe and John Grado whether flats or bowls should be the stock pads? So maybe it's not that Senn engineers were forced to cut back and use chicken wire (LOL!), but that's what was deemed best for the phones.

Grado Pads make indisputable, very significant sonic differences. As far as I know, Sennheiser has maintained their cable is perfectly good enough.

I think HD580/600/650 have lots of replacable cables available on the market... just because lots of audiophiles use them and the cable manufacturers saw the market. You don't see as many cables available for Koss R80's and Sony CD780's etc even though their cables are replacable. I simply don't think headphone manufacturers make their cables replacable to accomodate cable changes for sonic adjustments (and to make cable companies rich

).

 

[Hunter_Killer]

So its safe to say that there are unbelievers here amongst a majority of believers?

Personally I do believe the cables makle a difference, but there is no point in spending a cent on cables unless your system is top notch. Id would be the last component of the system Id upgrade.

 

[swalker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter_Killer So its safe to say that there are unbelievers here amongst a majority of believers? Personally I do believe the cables makle a difference, but there is no point in spending a cent on cables unless your system is top notch. Id would be the last component of the system Id upgrade.

The discussion on the topic of audio cables has been done to death in numerous audio forums... you can do a search in google and spend hours reading epic battles between the two parties. (Don't forget the popcorn!)

The problem with the "top notch system" idea is, the definition of "top notch" is hazy at best. How good the system has to be in order to satisfy the "top notch" status? Do they have to cost a certain amount like tiberian said? One's highend will be another's mid-fi.

 

[ipodstudio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic What about those who are not making any claims as to whether any difference exists or not, rather are merely asking you to demonstrate the existence of a difference in an objective manner (such as ABX testing). Are they also guilty of silly intellectual folly?

Kind of. Why should members here setup an extensive test costing much time and money in order to prove to someone else something which they have already proved to themselves whilst listening to the cable?

Just buy it, listen to it, and if it does nothing for your sytem then sell it. If it does to your system what it does to mine, keep it if you like the effect.

 

[tiberian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swalker The problem with the "top notch system" idea is, the definition of "top notch" is hazy at best. How good the system has to be in order to satisfy the "top notch" status? Do they have to cost a certain amount like tiberian said? One's highend will be another's mid-fi.

a poll would be useful in this situation. we can find out the mean, sd and all the sordid details i learned from last semester's stat 1001 class, then there can be an estimation (sorta). bleh i have forgotten most of it already.

 

[swalker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiberian a poll would be useful in this situation. we can find out the mean, sd and all the sordid details i learned from last semester's stat 1001 class, then there can be an estimation (sorta). bleh i have forgotten most of it already.

Then there would be the problem of choosing the right sample and that would be pretty much impossible. Is the HD650 highend? (and there have been two threads that I remember on the topic over the last few years) what about a maxed out PPA? These questions are far too subjective and in the world of audio, there hardly is anything objective and polling wouldnt' solve anything.

I begin to think the cable debate is metaphysical and people will believe what they believe. Is there ghost? Do supernatural powers exist?

EDIT : Hmm.. I just remembered James Randi has included audiophile claims in his million dollar challange. I wonder if anybody will take up the offer?

 

[tortie]

People hear differently, that we all will agree with. We also have different systems, all will also agree to that too. If you want to test something, I believe it should be tested by you, in your own system and in your own listening habits & environment.

All replacement cables for the HD600/650 have a 30-day warranty. Order them, listen to them, and if YOU dont hear any differences with the cable in YOUR system then, return them. Its that simple folks. Even if the cable improvement on the sound only really works because you believe that it does, so be it. But as long as YOU hear the improvement (whether its real or imagined), then the cable will be worth it. If you dont hear it, return them or sell them, thats what I did.

 

[Langrath]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier Langrath, Did any of this help? JF

No!

But I really enjoy reading. I am very interested in psychological placebo effects. These effects are huge. Can move mountains. Every good doctor uses it.
I am not saying that there are no differences between cables. I only search for an objective test that is really objective. It should be easy to do. Listen alternative to same music, same equipment but different cables. Nobody knows the right answer until the experiment is done.
A little parenthesis. Why is nearly always the most expensive equipment judged as the best? Theoretically there should be the possibility that the cheapest material is the best for the purpose. But never.
The most fun example I have seen is when an audio magazine tested minidiscs
"discs". The most expensive won the test. Better bass, more clear sound and so on. The tester had no idea about digital recording obviously, but he showed the placebo effect in a nearly charming way.
We all have our placebos. I wouldn't like to live without them. I would like to have Sennheiser Orpheus most to stare at the glittering lamps. I am convinced that the sight of them would raise the enjoyment of music.
So I love the placebo effect in human being and thank God for giving us the possibility to let our imagination live its own life.
Still. It would be interesting to make the blind test with cables.
There are no crazier people than we, discussing sound from headphones. And just for that. I love you all.

Georg

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

Why should members here setup an extensive test costing much time and money in order to prove to someone else something which they have already proved to themselves whilst listening to the cable?

The pursuit of knowledge? It really is a worthy cause... Also, because what is being reported appears to be nothing more than a very well known phenomenon.

As I keep saying though, it wouldn't at all be surprising if Cardas (et al) simply manufactured their cable to sound different... "different" + "expensive" = "better" in the minds of many (to say nothing of the fact that a little less treble (likely what's being done to the sound) usually does sound 'smoother').

Quote:

Even if the cable improvement on the sound only really works because you believe that it does, so be it. But as long as YOU hear the improvement (whether its real or imagined), then the cable will be worth it.

Whoa whoa whoa- be careful about using this as justification for the cable! Cardas (et al

) would NOT appreciate you putting their cables on the same 'effective' level as rainbow colored socks and crystal pyramids...

Quote:

Why is nearly always the most expensive equipment judged as the best?

Ding ding ding ding ding ding. See above.

Quote:

I would like to have Sennheiser Orpheus most to stare at the glittering lamps. I am convinced that the sight of them would raise the enjoyment of music.

Now you're getting into a legitimate reason to buy expensive sht (truly)- it often looks nicer, and putting fancy cables on your million dollar setup just looks cooler than having a 6.99 RadioShack patch hanging there.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac And, as always, I could be wrong- we may find out tomorrow that Sennheiser really did decide they needed to cut costs significantly to compete, so actually just have two strands of rusty chicken wire in their cable, and didn't care that it failed, at least partially, to deliver the signal properly.

Construction of the Sennheiser HD-600 stock cable is a very thin Litz wire braid. I'm talking hair-thin here. Running that cable over 3 m is going to muck with the signal. My guess is that it should be measurable with decent equipment. The outside of the cable for the HD-650 is significantly thicker, indicating that Sennheiser did something different, but I haven't seen the wire itself, and don't know if the wire was changed, or just the shielding/insulation. It's definitely a different cable though, so if the original cable was passing a perfect signal, why would they change it? Unless, of course, that was part of the sonic improvement that Sennheiser was aiming for with the HD-650. Wait a minute, that would mean that they thought one cable is better than the other...

And if that's the case, who's to say that someone else can't make it better still?