Do you really hear differences in cables?

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula Well, on the one hand I've got the people who haven't heard the cable arguing there is no proof of a sound difference, on the other hand I've got an overwhelming number of people who have heard the cable (including myself) and noted a difference, and the opinion of at least one Sennheiser employee that was the same. I'll go with the people with actual experience and the company itself versus those with no experience on this one. I don't say this to be insulting, but it's amusing to hear those who haven't listened to the combo either: A. Insisting we prove that there is a difference. B. Insisting there is no difference. I said it before and I'll say it again...those with no experience with the HD-650 and the Zu cable really have nothing practical to add to the discussion. Although they can argue theoretical points that aren't as important as-again-actually having heard the headphone/cable in question. It's the height of silly intellectual folly to me for people to vehemently claim that there is no difference or proof of such without having heard the 650/Zu combination! This isn't directly addressed to you, but to the whole "I don't trust anything until it's empiracly proven, even if it's common sense and obvious" crowd. I can't speak to the difference other headphones/cables make, but the 650/Zu I can.

What about those who are not making any claims as to whether any difference exists or not, rather are merely asking you to demonstrate the existence of a difference in an objective manner (such as ABX testing). Are they also guilty of silly intellectual folly?

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic What about those who are not making any claims as to whether any difference exists or not, rather are merely asking you to demonstrate the existence of a difference in an objective manner (such as ABX testing). Are they also guilty of silly intellectual folly?

I should monitor my words more carefully...I like this site and it's general tone, I don't mean to contribute to lowering those standards; I've been edgier than I like to be from reviewing some of my thoughts in this thread.

To answer your question, I think objective evidence is useful but not critical when the difference is obvious. If someone asks me to prove the existence of a difference, my first answer to such a person would be...listen to the combination first, and then we can discuss whether the need for further evidence is necessary.

I do think it's putting the cart before the horse (putting it mildly) to debate the question heatedly if one has no real life experience.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula I should monitor my words more carefully...I like this site and it's general tone, I don't mean to contribute to lowering those standards; I've been edgier than I like to be from reviewing some of my thoughts in this thread.

Not to worry, I think everyone's been doing an admirable job of keeping their cool in this thread.

Back on subject, in my case I've never been able to detect an obvious difference in cables, in fact, I can't detect any at all, and I think that while I probably fall short of 'golden' I've still got a pretty decent set of ears. In fact I've never even known anyone who can tell a difference between headphone cables in a blind test. So I guess under those circumstances it seems reasonable for me to have at least some question as to whether the difference can really be quantified as 'obvious'. Is that fair enough?

Having hopefully put the cart and the horse in the right orientation, can you easily tell a difference between the stock and Zu cables under a true blind test condition? This is certainly what one would expect in order for the difference to be called obvious. I just want to be sure that I understand you correctly...

 

[Blitzula]

When you speak of cable/headphone combinations, have you heard the Zu/HD-650 in particular?

Yes, double blind, I could tell the difference. However, I would want to make that double blind judgment after an extended period of time with the same music.

Give me two hours with each cable with the same music, and then alternate the cables over two hour increments, and yeah, I believe I would be able to tell the difference.

The difference is clear right away....learning which cable causes that difference and how that difference is shown over time in various songs takes time.

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

I do think it's putting the cart before the horse (putting it mildly) to debate the question heatedly if one has no real life experience.

Blitz., while I appreciate the civil tone, have you missed everything I've posted?

To be blunt, if there is any difference between your cable and the stock Senn, one or the other is purposefully designed to alter the signal (you have to work to fck up the kind of signal we're talking about over the distances we're talking about).

I think Sennheiser cares a little bit about what they're sending their $500 phones out with, so I'm going to have to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least for now, and assume Zu/Cardas/Oehlbach/whoever is designing their cable to sound different (if it indeed is different, which admittedly some are claiming is bunk- I'm remaining open for now, though).

I'd also like to restate that I think if you like the sound the cable gives the phones with that sort of 'permanent equalization', nobody should hassle you about it as long as you don't claim it's doing something it's not.

 

[JohnFerrier]

Well, I've read with interest the posts of the people in this thread and will continue to read their posts with interest.

Magic *is* involved with audio. But I give *all* credit for the magic to the musicians.

Someone recommend that I try recordings from Mapleshade Records. I'll give that a try.

Thanks all.


JF

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac Blitz., while I appreciate the civil tone, have you missed everything I've posted? To be blunt, if there is any difference between your cable and the stock Senn, one or the other is purposefully designed to alter the signal (you have to work to fck up the kind of signal we're talking about over the distances we're talking about). I think Sennheiser cares a little bit about what they're sending their $500 phones out with, so I'm going to have to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least for now, and assume Zu/Cardas/Oehlbach/whoever is designing their cable to sound different (if it indeed is different, which admittedly some are claiming is bunk- I'm remaining open for now, though). I'd also like to restate that I think if you like the sound the cable gives the phones with that sort of 'permanent equalization', nobody should hassle you about it as long as you don't claim it's doing something it's not.

I never claimed the sound wasn't different...I in fact have claimed it was. I never said the Zu Cable isn't designed to sound different.

What I've said is that the sound is clearly different than the stock Sennheiser cable. I don't know that we have a disagreement on that point.

To address your other point, I bought my Sennheiser headphones for $330 from Todd. The RS-1 is $625 or so if you look around. Sennheiser has a very good motivation for shipping a cable that is solid but not necessarily the best....it puts a price point in where they look attractive. I'm sure you've seen many instances where people point out the pricing differential between the RS-1s and Senns, this works to Sennheiser's advantage.

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

Sennheiser has a very good motivation for shipping a cable that is solid but not necessarily the best....

If you think the cable that ships with those phones isn't perfectly adequate to deliver the signal in full to the headphones, you don't understand the principles at work.

I don't know what else to tell you to convince you that your assumption that Senn has a cable that is so bad as to fail at a monumentally easy task is bordering on bananas.

If you're comfortable with that, we don't have to argue further.

And, as always, I could be wrong- we may find out tomorrow that Sennheiser really did decide they needed to cut costs significantly to compete, so actually just have two strands of rusty chicken wire in their cable, and didn't care that it failed, at least partially, to deliver the signal properly.

 

[tiberian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac Blitz., while I appreciate the civil tone, have you missed everything I've posted? To be blunt, if there is any difference between your cable and the stock Senn, one or the other is purposefully designed to alter the signal (you have to work to fck up the kind of signal we're talking about over the distances we're talking about). I think Sennheiser cares a little bit about what they're sending their $500 phones out with, so I'm going to have to give them the benefit of the doubt, at least for now, and assume Zu/Cardas/Oehlbach/whoever is designing their cable to sound different (if it indeed is different, which admittedly some are claiming is bunk- I'm remaining open for now, though). I'd also like to restate that I think if you like the sound the cable gives the phones with that sort of 'permanent equalization', nobody should hassle you about it as long as you don't claim it's doing something it's not.

i just can't agree with the 'alter the signal' part. in my experience the stock cable hide lots of detail (roll-off, collapsed soundstage etc) and zu cable for example, simply allows the previously hidden detail to be heard.
on the other hand, *cough*[size=medium]personal experience speaks louder than rhetorical bluff[/size]*cough*. i will try my best to remain civil and not to flame tho.

 

[rodbac]

Tiberian- you could take $10 in parts from RatShack and build a cable that would accomplish the task successfully.

If you're saying the stock Senn cable doesn't do the job (HF rolloff, which would imply capacitance figures out in left field, etc), you HAVE to assume they designed it that way on purpose.

I submit they wouldn't do that. That's all.

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodbac If you think the cable that ships with those phones isn't perfectly adequate to deliver the signal in full to the headphones, you don't understand the principles at work. I don't know what else to tell you to convince you that your assumption that Senn has a cable that is so bad as to fail at a monumentally easy task is bordering on bananas. If you're comfortable with that, we don't have to argue further. And, as always, I could be wrong- we may find out tomorrow that Sennheiser really did decide they needed to cut costs significantly to compete, so actually just have two strands of rusty chicken wire in their cable, and didn't care that it failed, at least partially, to deliver the signal properly.

I think you believe me to be arguing a more minute point that I actually am. All I'm saying is that what I hear from the stock cable is significantly different than what I hear from the Zu Cable. That's it....they're different.

I'll leave the details of what causes the difference and what exactly is being changed to those who are particularly interested in that discussion. Once I hear a clear difference that I enjoy, I've found the sound that I am looking for, regardless of reason....at least until the inevitable upgrade urge strkes.

 

[tiberian]

if sennheiser believe the stock cable is perfectly adequate, than what's the point of allowing users to detach it? and what about the plugs? they can save more by wiring the cables directly to the drivers.

 

[swalker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiberian if sennheiser believe the stock cable is perfectly adequate, than what's the point of allowing users to detach it? and what about the plugs? they can save more by wiring the cables directly to the drivers.

To make it easily replacable? Sony did it with some of their headphones too and I don't think Sony was expecting users to go out looking for upgrade cables for the CD780's

 

[tiberian]

how often do you break a cable?

 

[swalker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiberian how often do you break a cable?

Actually to a clumsy person it happens more than you'd think.. Just ask some of my old headphones

I seriously doubt Sennheiser made it replacable because the cable was not good enough. Did they make the plastic/metal grill of HD580/600/650 easily replacable because they knew some people would not like the sound of the metal grill and would go out buy woodies to attach in the place instead?