[rodbac]

Quote:

There is more to sound measurement than distortion measurements and frequency response deviations.

We're not talking about "sound", we're talking about the signal produced at the amp getting from one end of the wire to the other. It's electricity, not sound, and if anyone thinks that process isn't very, VERY well understood, you're dead wrong.

If anyone thinks it's a tall order (that you can't just slap a stock cable on there and expect it to do the trick) keeping it identical (for all practical purposes) from one end to the other, you're dead wrong.

Rather than just looking at the reality of the situation, we keep hearing the anthem of the credulous: "There's so much that we don't understand!!!!11"

Not about this, there isn't...

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier We got a man to the moon and back alive following laws of physics not magic wires and hokus pokus...

Not to forget magic tubes, magic transistors, magic capacitors... You really mean we (the human race) are at a point where we know everything that can be known, and the proof for this is the visit on the moon? SACD lover is absolutely right. I also don't expect different cables to measure significantly different, just as little as different amps with obviously different sonic characteristics. I know that awes certain people, whereas I'm just fascinated. I'm rather sure though that it's not hokus pokus, but within the laws of physics.

 

[tortie]

I have tried the headphone replacement cables and silver ICs. When I initially got them, I thought I can hear a difference between the standard-issue cables and the audiophile cables. After months of using them, I tried replacing them with my old standard cables and with MY ears and MY equipment, I cant tell the difference between the two. I think I can sometimes pick up subtle differences between the cables, but I will surely lose a bet if I were made to pick one from the other in a blind test. So I decided to sell them off. But you know whats funny, after a few weeks without the cables, I now think my system is "congested" and I want my old cables back! But if it takes nearly a month for me to pickup a subtle difference, its more likely that its my mind playing tricks on me.

The difference for me is surely not night & day, not the same as changing headphones. So do I really hear differences in cables? If you asked me 2 years ago, I would have said NO. If you asked me one month after I joined head-fi, I would have said YES. Last month, my answer would be a NO. Now? I honestly DONT KNOW!

 

[Blitzula]

One thing that I forgot to mention in this thread is that I actually called Sennheiser before I bought the Zu Cable to ask them if it would make a difference in the sound. They admitted that there would be a slight difference (they termed it an improvement) in the sound with the Zu. When I actually got the cable, I found the difference/improvement to be far more pronounced.

So at least one Sennheiser rep will admit to a cable change/sound difference....

 

[ILikeMusic]

This is an interesting discussion but regarding human perceptual difference in audio, in the end it doesn't matter what theory says, it doesn't matter whether you can measure it adequately or not with test equipment, and it doesn't even matter what an individual believes they can hear... the only proof is a simple blind ABX test. If you can reliably perceive a difference between two different cables under truly blind test conditions then the difference exists, and if you can't reliably resolve a difference under blind test conditions then a difference doesn't exist. It is really no more simple and no more complicated than that.

Is anyone willing to claim that they performed a true blind test (using short music segments, an entire track, or whatever your preference) and obtained results indicating that they can reliably identify a stock OEM headphone cable vs. an upgrade?

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula So at least one Sennheiser rep will admit to a cable change/sound difference....

Well there are a lot of people here that will say that there is a sound improvement, that doesn't mean there *is* an improvement.

And, again, my problem is that the cable can cost as much as headphones.

And no one commented on the fact that people don't notice the response curves differences that HeadRoom publishes for many different headphones. These show a rather significant difference in response curves (L and R). Why is something immeasurable a problem, but something obviously measurable go undetected???

Sennheiser HD 650 spec sheet: "Hand-selected, matched headphone systems with very tight tolerances (+/- 1 dB)."
Cheap cables and expensive cables will match much closer than +/- 1dB (which, by the way, happens to be +/- 12%).

Zu Cable's supporting documentation for the improvement their product furnishes: "Under Construction".

JF

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic This is an interesting discussion but regarding human perceptual difference in audio, in the end it doesn't matter what theory says, it doesn't matter whether you can measure it adequately or not with test equipment, and it doesn't even matter what an individual believes they can hear... the only proof is a simple blind ABX test. If you can reliably perceive a difference between two different cables under truly blind test conditions then the difference exists, and if you can't reliably resolve a difference under blind test conditions then a difference doesn't exist. It is really no more simple and no more complicated than that. Is anyone willing to claim that they performed a true blind test (using short music segments, an entire track, or whatever your preference) and obtained results indicating that they can reliably identify a stock OEM headphone cable vs. an upgrade?

ABX testing has been brought up over and over. Google indexes billions of web pages and no one can find a report that supports that you can hear the difference in wires. May it's worth doing a new search.

JF

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier Well there are a lot of people here that will say that there is a sound improvement, that doesn't mean there *is* an improvement.

Sure, but I think I'm willing to accept the opinion of the company that manufactures the product, particularly when it wasn't in their best interest to admit that an after market cable improves the sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier And, again, my problem is that the cable can cost as much as headphones..

That's another issue...whether it's worth it or not is for each person's taste/budget to decide. I think there's enough debate in this thread on whether the cable makes a difference or not (oddly-or not-primarily from people who haven't heard it) without going into that area, so I'll refrain from comment there.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier Google indexes billions of web pages and no one can find a report that supports that you can hear the difference in wires.

That was kind of my point. However, I'm willing to listen if someone involved in this discussion is willing to claim that can reliably identify stock vs. upgraded cables under true blind test conditions. Since the difference is felt to be obvious by several contributors this should be an easy task. Anyone..?

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula Sure, but I think I'm willing to accept the opinion of the company that manufactures the product, particularly when it wasn't in their best interest to admit that an after market cable improves the sound.

That was the opinion of one person within the company, not "the opinion of the company" (and not even an expert opinion from within the company).


JF

 

[tortie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic That was kind of my point. However, I'm willing to listen if someone involved in this discussion is willing to claim that can reliably identify stock vs. upgraded cables under true blind test conditions. Since the difference is felt to be obvious by several contributors this should be an easy task. Anyone..?

Blind tests are forbidden here. (In the cables forum anyway, where this thread should be in). History shows that DBT doesnt solve anything...it just leads to more heated debate among cable believers and sceptics.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortie Blind tests are forbidden here. (In the cables forum anyway, where this thread should be in). History shows that DBT doesnt solve anything...it just leads to more heated debate among cable believers and sceptics.

Huh..? A simple method that can help resolve the issue is 'forbidden'..? Why doom everyone to endless subjective arguments when a simple method exists to confirm the claim? It would seem that someone who feels that their latest cable purchase represents a big improvement would be more than happy to help out the group by publishing some simple blind test results. Why wouldn't they..?

If there's any sense at all around here blind tests should be required, not 'forbidden'.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortie But you know whats funny, after a few weeks without the cables, I now think my system is "congested" and I want my old cables back! But if it takes nearly a month for me to pickup a subtle difference, its more likely that its my mind playing tricks on me.

You have just figured out why people who hear differences in cables don't like DBT/ABX in the way that it's conventionally performed. Some sonic differences simply aren't perceived in a short-term exposure. It can take days, or even weeks, to pick up some aspects of sound. Attention is limited, and if you're focussed on the wrong aspect of the sound, it's easy to miss some really profound effects (I've done this). If you still had the old cable and it relieved the "congestion" you're hearing, you'd know what's going on. You're much likelier to miss key sonic cues in a short-term test than over the long-term. If it takes you a month to pick up on it, that sounds more like perceptual learning than any sort of expectancy effect.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch You're much likelier to miss key sonic cues in a short-term test than over the long-term.

What is your basis for making that statement? Every published test I have seen demonstrates the opposite to be true. Quote:

If it takes you a month to pick up on it, that sounds more like perceptual learning than any sort of expectancy effect.

Maybe, maybe not... bit in any event once the 'perceptual learning' has taken place then one should be able to reliably tell the difference between the two, even without knowing which is in use, yes..?

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier That was the opinion of one person within the company, not "the opinion of the company" (and not even an expert opinion from within the company). JF

Well, on the one hand I've got the people who haven't heard the cable arguing there is no proof of a sound difference, on the other hand I've got an overwhelming number of people who have heard the cable (including myself) and noted a difference, and the opinion of at least one Sennheiser employee that was the same.

I'll go with the people with actual experience and the company itself versus those with no experience on this one.

I don't say this to be insulting, but it's amusing to hear those who haven't listened to the combo either:

A. Insisting we prove that there is a difference.
B. Insisting there is no difference.

I said it before and I'll say it again...those with no experience with the HD-650 and the Zu cable really have nothing practical to add to the discussion. Although they can argue theoretical points that aren't as important as-again-actually having heard the headphone/cable in question.

It's the height of silly intellectual folly to me for people to vehemently claim that there is no difference or proof of such without having heard the 650/Zu combination!

This isn't directly addressed to you, but to the whole "I don't trust anything until it's empiracly proven, even if it's common sense and obvious" crowd.

I can't speak to the difference other headphones/cables make, but the 650/Zu I can.