[qusp]

nice work downsize, I didnt realize those old polymer housings for bullets were still out there. but then I suppose I live where they are made.

as for my post above, I suppose there could be a borderline short as well, but for it to happen twice would seem unlikely. I have experienced the bleed effect before and that was the issue

 

[limpidglitch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif as for my post above, I suppose there could be a borderline short as well, but for it to happen twice would seem unlikely. I have experienced the bleed effect before and that was the issue

No really, you think?

Damn mister, you've got crosstalk on your brain, badly.

I'm not saying braiding the wires together won't induce crosstalk, but proposing that as the main reasons for WayTooCrazys' problems is, well, way too crazy.
My SR225 cable is tightly braided, and I do not experience any 'bleeding', what it doesn't have, however, are bad solder connections, bridges or faulty wires. WayTooCrazy, if this your first(ish) go at soldering, these are the things i would check.

 

[Mediaogre]

Quote:

Originally Posted by .Sup /img/forum/go_quote.gif Shortened my cable for portable use with mp3 player and replaced plug. Its a very complicated connector to work with but I managed.

Aint they though. :-/ Those solders points are tiny. And in my opinion, the sleeve opening is too wide.

Nice work. I'm lovin' the yellow. Oh, and you and your avatar owe me a laptop keyboard.

-Ogre

 

[momomo6789]

ive had 2 neutrik L plugs that short with no wire attached

 

[WayTooCrazy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif hmm, something needs to be done about this, perhaps a sticky or note on the first page. it is precisely BECAUSE you pulled the wires out and braided them all together that your stereo cable bleeds. think about it, you have taken 2 channels and woven them with one another, this causes crosstalk and i'm afraid this fashionable look is causing many a noob DIYER to have more crosstalk than is necessary. litz braiding is meant for single channel cables, if you want the braided look on a stereo cable, you will need to put up with it; or braid a 3 wire braid for each channel. covered like yours is, you would be better with dual twisted pair then if you want to get rid of crosstalk further, shield the pairs from each other. all components (apart from fully dual mono systems) have a small amount of crosstalk already, but with good gear it is negligible, however braiding a long stereo cable like that causes a considerable amount IME the result akin to a mild crossfeed if the cable is long enough. for shorter cables up to a couple if feet its sometimes still the most practical way to do it, but I only do it where i'm asked to, or if weight/thickness is a factor and I cannot sleeve it

I can agree with that, but the cross talk was there well before the braiding ever happened.

 

[WayTooCrazy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by limpidglitch /img/forum/go_quote.gif No really, you think? Damn mister, you've got crosstalk on your brain, badly. I'm not saying braiding the wires together won't induce crosstalk, but proposing that as the main reasons for WayTooCrazys' problems is, well, way too crazy. My SR225 cable is tightly braided, and I do not experience any 'bleeding', what it doesn't have, however, are bad solder connections, bridges or faulty wires. WayTooCrazy, if this your first(ish) go at soldering, these are the things i would check.

I thought this as well, but I unsoldered all the connections and re-soldered them again to make sure. It isn't the first cables I've made... as I built a similar cable (using Canare StarQuad for a Gaming Cable off of my AKG K240), and have experienced 0 cross-talk between he channels (though, they are still in their jacket and not braided).

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by limpidglitch /img/forum/go_quote.gif No really, you think? Damn mister, you've got crosstalk on your brain, badly. I'm not saying braiding the wires together won't induce crosstalk, but proposing that as the main reasons for WayTooCrazys' problems is, well, way too crazy. My SR225 cable is tightly braided, and I do not experience any 'bleeding', what it doesn't have, however, are bad solder connections, bridges or faulty wires. WayTooCrazy, if this your first(ish) go at soldering, these are the things i would check.

I would like you to do an experiment for me. braid a 6+ foot cable, connect it to your IEMs somehow, turn the volume up to a reasonably loud, but not insane level and play a mono track panned hard to one side. I think you will be surprised at the result. he did not say how extreme it was and your sarcasm is...well......blah..... its only natural to defend the way you are doing things, but crosstalk over long braided cables is not insignificant. going to lengths to make cables to improve your audio by a few percentile and then creating issues where there need not be any is a bit odd IMO, if you must have exposed braided cables, use 6 thinner wires for 2 x 3 wire braids or accept that its as much a fashion or practicality thing than audio related

perhaps I assume a higher degree of basic skill than was there to begin with, so I came back and edited it. I assumed that since it had been done twice and he had not said it was extreme that it was crosstalk. as its a longish cable and I have tested this myself, thus my tendency to avoid it where possible. borderline shorts sound a bit more extreme than 'bleed' they have an odd kind of phasing effect as well and shorts dont sound at all.

 

[qusp]

another solution is to go balanced, then crosstalk is cancelled out by CMNR

 

[WayTooCrazy]

To be honest... I'm still getting it. I've tossed the braided Redco, picked up Mogami 2534. I'm building a 'gaming' cable, and I've used the BLUE wires as left and right. I then took one of the clear as a ground, the second clear is hot for the mic and the spiral wound shielding is negative for the mic.

The bleeding between channels is still there. I've even used 3 different mini-xlr connectors and 3 different Neutrik Silver 3.5mm stereo plugs. Still it bleeds. I don't understand it. I'm leaning towards the Neutrik as maybe they are from a bad batch. I'm going to RatShack and pick up one of their stereo mini plugs and test again.

Now, I know my soldering skills aren't the best, but I've soldered many things before (RC Batteries mostly). My last cable was built (same fashion as above) with Canare L-4E6S and has '0' bleed issues. I'm ALMOST Tempted to pull the Neutrik connector off of that one and try one of the new Neutriks to see if it bleeds then and vice versa... but that cable and the headphone is on sale here... and I don't really want to mess with it much.

 

[limpidglitch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would like you to do an experiment for me. braid a 6+ foot cable, connect it to your IEMs somehow, turn the volume up to a reasonably loud, but not insane level and play a mono track panned hard to one side. I think you will be surprised at the result. he did not say how extreme it was and your sarcasm is...well......blah..... its only natural to defend the way you are doing things, but crosstalk over long braided cables is not insignificant. going to lengths to make cables to improve your audio by a few percentile and then creating issues where there need not be any is a bit odd IMO, if you must have exposed braided cables, use 6 thinner wires for 2 x 3 wire braids or accept that its as much a fashion or practicality thing than audio related perhaps I assume a higher degree of basic skill than was there to begin with, so I came back and edited it. I assumed that since it had been done twice and he had not said it was extreme that it was crosstalk. as its a longish cable and I have tested this myself, thus my tendency to avoid it where possible. borderline shorts sound a bit more extreme than 'bleed' they have an odd kind of phasing effect as well and shorts dont sound at all.

As I stated, I know cross talk can be a real issue. I have experienced it myself (with the mentioned SR225 cable), but it is completely neglible. I haven't found it to have an affect worth worrying about when I use the headphones in a regular fashion. I do realize the subjectivity of this, so ymmv and all that.
My point is that the problem WTC wrote about seemed to be of the sort that prevents you from using the headphone at all, something cross talk induced by a 6ft long braided cable won't do. Again, I'm not saying it will be inaudible if you look for it, just that it wont be a major problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WayTooCrazy /img/forum/go_quote.gif To be honest... I'm still getting it. I've tossed the braided Redco, picked up Mogami 2534. I'm building a 'gaming' cable, and I've used the BLUE wires as left and right. I then took one of the clear as a ground, the second clear is hot for the mic and the spiral wound shielding is negative for the mic. The bleeding between channels is still there. I've even used 3 different mini-xlr connectors and 3 different Neutrik Silver 3.5mm stereo plugs. Still it bleeds. I don't understand it. I'm leaning towards the Neutrik as maybe they are from a bad batch. I'm going to RatShack and pick up one of their stereo mini plugs and test again. Now, I know my soldering skills aren't the best, but I've soldered many things before (RC Batteries mostly). My last cable was built (same fashion as above) with Canare L-4E6S and has '0' bleed issues. I'm ALMOST Tempted to pull the Neutrik connector off of that one and try one of the new Neutriks to see if it bleeds then and vice versa... but that cable and the headphone is on sale here... and I don't really want to mess with it much.

Usin a plug you know work could be helpful in eliminating some of the hypothesises.
Maybe do the test qusp mentioned and report back? (play sound just in one channel and see how much you can hear in the 'silent' one.)

 

[pdupiano]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif hmm, something needs to be done about this, perhaps a sticky or note on the first page. it is precisely BECAUSE you pulled the wires out and braided them all together that your stereo cable bleeds. think about it, you have taken 2 channels and woven them with one another, this causes crosstalk and i'm afraid this fashionable look is causing many a noob DIYER to have more crosstalk than is necessary. litz braiding is meant for single channel cables, if you want the braided look on a stereo cable, you will need to put up with it; or braid a 3 wire braid for each channel. covered like yours is, you would be better with dual twisted pair then if you want to get rid of crosstalk further, shield the pairs from each other. all components (apart from fully dual mono systems) have a small amount of crosstalk already, but with good gear it is negligible, however braiding a long stereo cable like that causes a considerable amount IME the result akin to a mild crossfeed if the cable is long enough. for shorter cables up to a couple if feet its sometimes still the most practical way to do it, but I only do it where i'm asked to, or if weight/thickness is a factor and I cannot sleeve it

If you do a quad -round litz braid and you perform a consistent geometric braid of two channels (1 signal &1 ground/channel), then you won't have any cross talk since both signals will be perpendicular to one another. Starquad cables on the other hand promote a good deal of crosstalk.

 

[pdupiano]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WayTooCrazy /img/forum/go_quote.gif To be honest... I'm still getting it. I've tossed the braided Redco, picked up Mogami 2534. I'm building a 'gaming' cable, and I've used the BLUE wires as left and right. I then took one of the clear as a ground, the second clear is hot for the mic and the spiral wound shielding is negative for the mic. The bleeding between channels is still there. I've even used 3 different mini-xlr connectors and 3 different Neutrik Silver 3.5mm stereo plugs. Still it bleeds. I don't understand it. I'm leaning towards the Neutrik as maybe they are from a bad batch. I'm going to RatShack and pick up one of their stereo mini plugs and test again. Now, I know my soldering skills aren't the best, but I've soldered many things before (RC Batteries mostly). My last cable was built (same fashion as above) with Canare L-4E6S and has '0' bleed issues. I'm ALMOST Tempted to pull the Neutrik connector off of that one and try one of the new Neutriks to see if it bleeds then and vice versa... but that cable and the headphone is on sale here... and I don't really want to mess with it much.

I Think you're going abit overboard, but to completely eliminate cables as your source of cross talk. Take two equal lenghts of mogami cable and use that to to make each channel (left and right) while keeping the shielding intact. Connect both shields to the ground in your 1/8" plug and leave the shielding floating on the other end. If you still have cross talk at this point, then I would look at your source (computer/soundcard).

 

[pdupiano]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif if you must have exposed braided cables, use 6 thinner wires for 2 x 3 wire braids or accept that its as much a fashion or practicality thing than audio related

wouldn't this be worse for cross talk? If you twist 2, 3wire braids together, you are still inducing crosstalk between channels. Even if you did 1 signal, 1 wire, 1 drain per 3 braid, the geometries that you get once you twist the cables will induce crosstalk at points where the drain wire is unable to "drain" the emi from the other channel. I suppose you could do 2, 3wire braids and keep them apart from one another, but at that point I would just go balanced.

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you do a quad -round litz braid and you perform a consistent geometric braid of two channels (1 signal &1 ground/channel), then you won't have any cross talk since both signals will be perpendicular to one another. Starquad cables on the other hand promote a good deal of crosstalk.

i'd like to see that, even insanely tight braids dont cross at 90 degrees (more like 75-80), close but no cigar. I would never use starquad either. if I cant run 2 twisted pairs in parallel and shield them from each other I tend to twist them VERY lightly, like once every 20-30cm the wires this way do not cross at all, but they do go parallel every now and then, which has its own effect, but is IMO the lesser of the 2 evils. all exposed wire cables are a trade off, you can trade one effect for slightly more of another. of course sometimes I o indeed do a round braid if practicality dictates this, but its not ideal

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif wouldn't this be worse for cross talk? If you twist 2, 3wire braids together, you are still inducing crosstalk between channels. Even if you did 1 signal, 1 wire, 1 drain per 3 braid, the geometries that you get once you twist the cables will induce crosstalk at points where the drain wire is unable to "drain" the emi from the other channel. I suppose you could do 2, 3wire braids and keep them apart from one another, but at that point I would just go balanced.

as above with my twisted twists, but yeah I agree its not the best solution either. I believe its better than round braid tho.

I would just go balanced from the beginning

at this stage WayTooCrazy i'm thinking this is a problem with your source or amp, not the cable at all

 

[WayTooCrazy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif at this stage WayTooCrazy i'm thinking this is a problem with your source or amp, not the cable at all

I'd probably agree, but I'm using my new uDac as a source and have used other headphones with no problem, as well as the same K240 headphones with my 'working' cable and it has no problems either. I'm attempting to do a 'litz' braid with 2xground and 2xsignal for the audio, and then I'm going to run the Mic separate. I'm just not sure why this is an issue, when I used the Canare StarQuad with great success to achieve my dual signal cable. Could it be the Redco and Mogami aren't isolated enough in their cable that they bleed audio if I run too many signals through it?