[felixkrull6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrypt Ah, but the problem is not simply that the original poster is complaining of the model failing to live up to her part of the agreement. It is the somewhat insulting way in which he dealt with the situation, both in real life and on this thread. Before anyone else wrote a word in response, I winced at the following phrases: "In her Maxim and portfolio pics, she was HOT and slender but the pics we took looked like we picked up some 'crack whore off the street' as one of my coworkers called it. . . . Personally I was grossed out by how she looked in some of the pictures. . . ." If this were really a matter of a simple business proposition, then why is AC salivating at how "HOT" the woman looked in previous pictures? Why does he sound more like a disappointed blind date than a dissatisfied employer? Am I alone in cringing at the use of the word "HOT" in this context? I can't console myself by making banal reference to some human irritant who happens to be female, like Paris Hilton ("she's a woman and she says it about other women, therefore it must be OK"). The argument doesn't hold, because the remark's reductive sexual context is the problem, not gender, which is a huge red herring. It doesn't matter whether the worker who dismissed the model as looking like a "crack whore" was male or female -- shallow summations based on appearance issue from both sexes constantly. It is no revelation that this is so -- no need for posters to reiterate the idea endlessly, as if it were a magic incantation that somehow nullified all of Plainsong's arguments. "People can be shallow and fashion is a shallow industry" -- yes, we get it. Perhaps Plainsong's expectation that the industry change its entire modus operandus beginning with AC1 is unrealistic. But it isn't unrealistic that AC1 refrain from telling us he was "grossed out" by the model's physical appearance, as if her lack of physical beauty -- as he defines beauty -- were so distasteful that the model should be kept in a Camp somewhere, out of his sight and out of his suffocating mindset.

Would it have been better if he said something like this,

"Her level of attractiveness was not up to the standards of the pictures that were rendered in her portfolio. Due to her generous proportions her pictures turned out in a manner that were not functional for my companies uses. Where she was very attractive, beautiful, and devoid of fat in her studio pictures, her appearance in person and subsequent pictures would lead one to believe that a great amount of manipulation had been done to the pictures we had been presented. I am greatly disappointed by what I consider to be false advertising."

I think that AC1 was being truthful about his opinions. He could have been slightly less crass in going about it but it still does not take away from the main point of his post which is false advertising. I also don't think that he sounds like a disappointed blind date. One of the jobs of a model is to look hot, what's wrong with being disappointed when the picture does not match the product? The fact that AC1 was grossed out was a personal opinion, he didn't say that he thought others should be as well or even said anything resembling to putting the model in a camp. Plainsong expressed disgust at the shallowness of an entire industry based on shallowness. This type of opinion would tend to illicit more responses.

The only real fault with AC1 is that I'm not sure why he and his company chose to continue with the shoot after meeting the model.

 

[scrypt]

I've got to leave to go to White Plains this weekend, so this will probably be the last reply I write until Monday.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjg i gotta butt in. If ANYONE takes a hardline against anything, how is it offensive to remark on it. i see the topic that she is female to be irrelevant. Yet, you say it's offense, so if you are personally offended, am I supposed to apologize to you?

You're missing the context. Telling a person they are a bad dancer does not exhibit prejudice. Telling a black man he is surprisingly ungraceful does. The expectation that a person of color should be more graceful genetically than a Caucasian is implied whether consciously or not. One might mean to imply a myriad of nuances ("surprisingly ungraceful, given how you're dressed"), but only one is likely to be considered.

If you think Plainsong is being too headstrong, then just say that. No need to suggest she is being unduly headstrong (i.e., for a woman) or call her Xena.

The problem with language is that it is context-born. You can't use the idea that gender is irrelevant as an excuse for using language that is charged in a context as specific as this.

Quote:

sorry i guess (shrug). Your making an argument that doesn't exist, and this is definatley irrelvant buddy. sorry. What genetic said was in gest, your dressing it up and reading between the lines...

First, an argument that has been made is in existence already. You can't simply wish it into the corn-field, mjg. Second, I'm not speaking of Genetic or anyone else specifically unless I name them, and if I were going to name them, I'd quote them for context instead of misrepresenting them through paraphrase. Third, there's no need to read between the lines in a culturally specific context like this particular thread on this particular message board: cultural conventions, not individual posters' motives, define the context. It's a question of how to avoid shooting yourself in the tongue en route to making your argument, not questions of good and evil.

Quote:

It is entirely anti-feminist if we need to approach plainsong in a special way to make an argument, we are all people here.

Yet it is anti-feminist to avoid approaching Plainsong in a respectful way simply because you feel that, as a woman, she ought to be able to take it as well as a man. We're here to talk to each other, not test people's genetic aptitude.

That's all I'm likely to say on this thread or any other until after Monday. You have yourself a tremendous weekend, mjg, and enjoy that Apogee for me (unless you've traded up already -- I've always meant to own one).

 

[Edwood]

Digital Liposuction.

One of the many weird jobs I've done in professional photo retouching.

-Ed

 

[AC1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrypt Ah, but the problem is not simply that the original poster is complaining of the model failing to live up to her part of the agreement. It is the somewhat insulting way in which he dealt with the situation, both in real life and on this thread.

If the original posting was deemed offensive then fine delete this thread.

What way I choose to describe what was my reaction and the reaction of people around me are on purpose to be unedited and are what actually happened. I never professed that this was the correct way to think about it.
If you want to break it down to anaylze every detail that does not fit in your world/beliefs that is your choice. But you can not tell me how I should feel or react to something even if it was based on something shallow.

What you mentioned are all agendas you are pushing.

 

[swt61]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood Digital Liposuction. One of the many weird jobs I've done in professional photo retouching. -Ed

On humans or hamsters?

And by the way, My opinion for what it's worth is that if you hire a model to market your clothing line, you have every right to expect them to be in shape and able to fit the clothes you hired them to model. At the very least they should somewhat resemble their portfolio photos.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swt61 On humans or hamsters?

Both

-Ed

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC1 If the original posting was deemed offensive then fine delete this thread. What way I choose to describe what was my reaction and the reaction of people around me are on purpose to be unedited and are what actually happened. I never professed that this was the correct way to think about it. If you want to break it down to anaylze every detail that does not fit in your world/beliefs that is your choice. But you can not tell me how I should feel or react to something even if it was based on something shallow. What you mentioned are all agendas you are pushing.

Prepare to be disillusioned even more with celebs. My favorite is "Celebrities without Makeup."

In the future, perhaps your work can contract the services of a modelling agency, that way you have a range to pick from.

There is a reason why models are called "clothes hangers" in the industry.

-Ed

 

[jpelg]

The OP only mentioned hiring base on pics. Don't most models come with a resume with vitals on all the relevant physical attributes to accompany the portfolio of pics?

If her resume says she's a size 0-2, and she shows up an 8, you've got reason to complain. Also, many models specialize - runway, print, etc. Again, this would have been on her resume. Just because she looks good in a magazine doesn't make her the right runway model for your Spring line.

 

[mjg]

Still don't agree with you scrypt, but i take your points. Still have the minidac.

enjoy the weekend yourself too.


I have no beef with plainsong, it seemed to be the xena comment was a joke. I don't think it's fair that there be a double standard for some categories of people. Yet, if that be the case, i hope she isn't all offended by it, it seemed pretty harmless.


i'm gonna retire from the thread too, editing my comments out didn't stop the arguing with me, so i guess i'll just go away for awhile heh.

 

[Zowbombs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrypt Yet it is anti-feminist to avoid approaching Plainsong in a respectful way simply because you feel that, as a woman, she ought to be able to take it as well as a man. We're here to talk to each other, not test people's genetic aptitude.

So essentially, treating a woman as if she were a woman is anti-feminist, but not giving acknowledgement to her sex is also anti-feminist?

 

[AC1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood Prepare to be disillusioned even more with celebs. My favorite is "Celebrities without Makeup." In the future, perhaps your work can contract the services of a modelling agency, that way you have a range to pick from. There is a reason why models are called "clothes hangers" in the industry. -Ed

I am not personally involved in the hiring so I don't know what was checked out or not. But ya we are definitely going to be more careful.
This just happened to one that had the most experienced of all models we ever hired or looked at, so I guess we thought it would work out.

 

[JaGWiRE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swt61 On humans or hamsters? And by the way, My opinion for what it's worth is that if you hire a model to market your clothing line, you have every right to expect them to be in shape and able to fit the clothes you hired them to model. At the very least they should somewhat resemble their portfolio photos.

I'de like to agree with Steve. If you hired a model and you thought she was not good looking while your other co-workers/employees thought she was good looking and just was not your taste, that would be an entirely nother story. In this case though, it seems you, and everybody you work with shared the same opinion that this women did not resemble her portfoilio photos whatsoever in looks or just physical design (i.e. weight, buffiness, etc.)

If I was that women, I would had felt as if I was insulting somebody just by walking in and being paid while not fitting the requirements other have said in this thread to be a model (i.e. stay in good physical shape, not overweight / watching your weight, etc.)

 

[RichardCory]

.

 

[AC1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardCory My hat goes off to AC1. As soon as I finished reading the first post, I just knew he was going to come under attack as being some sort of male chauvanist. But he handled the criticism very well.

Thanks for the props. I have a bruised toe so I am stuck in and thought to entertain myself. Worked a little too well maybe since there is even a paradoy thread about this which is just hilarious.

The kicker is I am the least critical about looks compared to my friends in my personal life. Some of them even think I am weird since I rarely comment on girls or that my "scoring" system of girls is so messed up compared to theirs because I have almost no ranking.

However, when it comes to models and if a picture looks good or not, I will have an opinion on it since I have to know if it will work or not. For this application I have a totally different standard and what I do for a living is based on these opinions.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrypt Nor is it anything less than offensive when people insult a female poster by suggesting in this thread and others that she is unduly strong-minded or overbearing. The great male insult toward women seems to be to accuse them of being overly self-sufficient, as various campaigns against other women with whom people disagree vociferously (Hillary Clinton, Margaret Atwood, random co-workers, etc.) show repeatedly. To dismiss a woman as Xena is tantamount to using the b-word. Not to dial it up, elrod-tom, but there are less prejudicial ways of attacking a woman's arguments. There are also less offensive ways of criticizing models.

Wait a minute!!!! Unless you are from another planet you must have read countless posts where this «prejudice song » was put in the CD player.

At first it had plenty of merit but for quite some time, (and by this I think more about the last time T. Rex ruled the world) it has lost some of its effect.

Again the message was hurt mostly by the messenger long time ago to the point it's now a pathetic empty shell.

Now before I realy speak my mind and Elrod put me on hold for a longer time than I deserve......

Do I say amicalement? I could but I wont.

EDIT:

To be perfectly clear about what I meant, this is what I wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genetic LOL...Dont feel bad about this. Its quite funny. Now I suppose we'll all have to apologize for looking at nice looking girls. Sure we all know that only men are looking at the Brad Pitts of this world.... I could go on, but I dont want to be run over by Zena our «Prejudice Warrior». Amicalement

You then took out the «Zena» from the expression Zena the «Prejudice Warrior» and used it in a quite different, and improper, direction. I REALY resent that. I resent that because I know you are much too intelligent person to be blind to the implications it has for the other side. It has nothing to do with the fear of the strong female type. It has everything to do with what I just wrote about the unfair use of the prejudice concept as an all azimuts form of personal attack.