[jankovic]

 
[size=10.0pt]Hello, I was thinking of buying a beyerdynamic dt770 pro 80ohm .. must play with a fiio e7, ipod and dac with IPAD. I feel comfortable, or do you recommend models with more impedance? thanks[/size]

 

[Tiramisu515]

I have the dt-990 (600) and was decided after I compared with the following:  
 
beyer T50P (32ohm),
dt-880 (both 250 & 600),
dt-990 (250) and
senn HD 600.
 
600ohm does produce better sound. smoother high and deeper bass. It sounds more in control. It is quieter, more stable, therefore less noise, hiss, hum and static problems. Also I was advised by beyer agent in Singapore where I am located that 600ohm would sound better. between dt-800 and dt-900 would be personal preference. I personally prefer dt-900 sound. It is more exciting compared to the dt-880. Didn't like dt-880 (250) but the 600 version was indeed better. 
 
To drive a 600 ohm headphone, I think a tube amp would be a ideal match. However, not any tube amp. A OTL tube amp would provide more power to drive the 600 ohm phones compared to one that is transformer coupled. 
 
A OTL tube amp is ideal to drive a 600 ohm phone because it can provide the most power or voltage to drive it.

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I am driving my dt-990 (600) with a LD Mk IV SE. Easy to drive, beautiful sound.
 
Enjoy!

 

[Denys]

 
Quote:

I have the dt-990 (600) and was decided after I compared with the following:  
 
beyer T50P (32ohm),
dt-880 (both 250 & 600),
dt-990 (250) and
senn HD 600.
 
600ohm does produce better sound. smoother high and deeper bass. It sounds more in control. It is quieter, more stable, therefore less noise, hiss, hum and static problems. Also I was advised by beyer agent in Singapore where I am located that 600ohm would sound better. between dt-800 and dt-900 would be personal preference. I personally prefer dt-900 sound. It is more exciting compared to the dt-880. Didn't like dt-880 (250) but the 600 version was indeed better. 
 
To drive a 600 ohm headphone, I think a tube amp would be a ideal match. However, not any tube amp. A OTL tube amp would provide more power to drive the 600 ohm phones compared to one that is transformer coupled. 
 
A OTL tube amp is ideal to drive a 600 ohm phone because it can provide the most power or voltage to drive it.

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I am driving my dt-990 (600) with a LD Mk IV SE. Easy to drive, beautiful sound.
 
Enjoy!

Therefore, My Antique Sound Lab MG HEAD OTL MKIII would be perfect to drive the DT770 600 ohms.... Even the Little DOT III would...
 
While I have you guys, the DT880 is called "Semi-closed".... if anyone listened to both the 770 and the 880, is there a big difference ? I really need a closed can for when I don't want to disturb my girlfriend.
 
Thanks for the answers so far....it really helps...
 
Denys
 

 

[Tiramisu515]

for your reference:
 
Difference between open and closed headphones
The differences between closed and open headphones are:
1) the strong ambient noise attenuation with closed headphones (and vice versa: the “outside world” cannot hear what is playing on the headphones) and

2) the better spatial sound with open headphones. In principle, semi-open headphones are a mix of both and attempt to combine the respective advantages of each type. 
 
Open, semi-open or closed? What is the difference? 
As already explained in the in-ear headphones topic, the bass response is very good with in-ear headphones, since the space between the diaphragm and eardrum is “closed”, so to speak. In principle, these are closed systems. However, the conclusion that closed headphones have the best bass response is not completely correct, because the system works in a manner that is completely different from that of in-ear headphones. This is a topic that is not easy to explain and would make this article too long.  
The biggest differences between closed and open headphones are: 1) the strong ambient noise attenuation with closed headphones (and vice versa: the outside world cannot hear what is playing on the headphones) and 2) the better spatial sound with open headphones. In principle, semi-open headphones (such as the DT 880 PRO) are a mix of both and attempt to combine the respective advantages of each type. If we look at the issue from a mechanical standpoint, we recognize that open headphones have an advantage in comparison to those that are closed: the air volume that is closed off between the diaphragm and the headphone shell attenuates the vibration of the diaphragm. With open headphones, there is pressure compensation through the shell, which has a positive influence on the impulse fidelity, among other effects. The greater attenuation of the diaphragm also decreases the risk of uncontrolled vibrations.
The choice of headphones on the basis of how they sound depends on what we want to listen to, of course. For classical and jazz music, which have less of a bass component, but for which very high impulse fidelity is of particular importance, open headphones are the perfect choice. For pop and rock music, semi-open or closed headphones are the preferred choice. 
In the end, which operating principle is suitable depends on the application (where do we want to use the headphones?). If the headphones are to be used in a quiet environment (in a music studio for mixing or listening to music, for example) you can freely choose headphones according to type and personal taste. If the headphones are to be used by a musician for monitoring purposes during a recording, headphones should be selected that attenuate ambient noise very well and that in turn shield sound from escaping into the environment, so that the sound produced by the headphones is not picked up by the microphone.



 
taken from beyer website.

 

[Kevin Brown]

Quote:

How loud do you listen?  When I had a pair of 990/600s I thought they sounded quite good out of my bithead, but I listen kind of soft.  I've seen other people complain about a lack of volume with the same combo.  My 770/250s sound good out of my bithead as well and I get plenty of volume with the gain set to low, so if you're a loud listener you should have some headroom with the 250s and the bithead.
 
Also, how cheap are you looking for?

 
I haven't actually tried the 880/250's with the Bithead yet.  I need to try that.    As far as cost for a more powerful amp, I'm looking in the < $150 range.  Top candidate is the Musiland Monitor 02, but I don't think that one is suggested to drive 600 ohm headphones though.


 

 

[Denys]

Well...just bought a pair of DT-770 600 ohms ....
 
I'll keep my HD800 in the living room with the WA6SE, and the Beyer DT770 in my bedroom with the Antique Sound Lab on OTL mode....
 
This way I'll have the best of both worlds.....
 
I'll sell my Little Dot MK III with the Mullard tubes to cover the expense of the headphones....
 
Thanks guys for your help
 
Denys

 

[Zombie_X]

Yes there is an improvement as you go up their line. And yes the 32Ohm one, to my ears, sounds more similar to the 600Ohm version than it does to the 250Ohm version. The 250Ohm version is more strident with weaker mids and bass. The 600Ohm is fuller sounding with more mids and bass, with very smooth and non fatiguing treble. Of course I don't have any treble sensitivity issues, so it may just be me but I know for a fact the 600Ohm version has a much more pleasing sound than it's other counterparts.
 
As for an amp/dac, you could get the PHENIX G3 as an OTL amp, and get a nuforce uDAC. The G3 will do a good job at driving those babies.
 
Quote:

 
This is the one I decided on.  ZX and MH: would you say there's an "improvement" from 32 to 250 to 600?  Or that the 32 sounds more similar to the 600 ohm, but the 250 is more different?
 
I'd love to get the 600 ohm model, but I don't seem to be having much luck finding a cheap but good amp/DAC combo to drive them.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I haven't actually tried the 880/250's with the Bithead yet.  I need to try that.    As far as cost for a more powerful amp, I'm looking in the < $150 range.  Top candidate is the Musiland Monitor 02, but I don't think that one is suggested to drive 600 ohm headphones though.

 

I'm not sure of any solid recommendations in that range myself.  Sorry, and good luck with the search.

 

[Catharsis]

I've been looking for any physical evidence (ie. measurements) that the 32ohm, 250ohm and 600ohm versions of the Beyer premiumline are different.  So far virtually all measurements show that there should be little difference from outputs with a Zout of ~0ohms between all versions.  The only people who claim that there are differences are people who use their ears; and without proper volume matched ABX testing, that means very little in my book. 

 

[Uncle Erik]

Tiramisu515, output power has very, very little to do with circuit topology. OTLs and transformer-coupled amps have varying output power depending on the circuit, power supply and tubes used. You could build an OTL with 150mW of power and a transformer-coupled amp with 1.5W of power. The transformer-coupled amp would be ten times more powerful. Output power depends on the design, so there's no way to generalize.

As to the original question, damping factor is important. The higher it is, the better control an amp has over a driver. If the amp's output impedance is 10 Ohms and you use a 600 Ohm headphone, you have a factor of 60:1, or really good control. But if you use an amp with high output impedance (like a lot of OTL amps) around 200-300 Ohms, you'll have a lower damping factor. I think this is a big reason why the 600 Ohm cans sound good - they allow most amps great control.

The opposite is true, as well. If you use 32 Ohm headphones with an amp that has a 200 Ohm output impedance, the damping factor disappears and you get bad performance.

Also, one of the big benefits of running transformer-coupled amps is that transformers really push the output impedance down. You generally get a higher damping factor with them. The drawback is that cheap output transformers don't sound good and the good ones make amps significantly more expensive.

 

[Zombie_X]

So I guess since my ROC has 2ohm output, and can output up to 700mw into my T1's, that means the amp has proper control over the driver? That must be why they seem to sound amazing on the ROC.
Quote:

Tiramisu515, output power has very, very little to do with circuit topology. OTLs and transformer-coupled amps have varying output power depending on the circuit, power supply and tubes used. You could build an OTL with 150mW of power and a transformer-coupled amp with 1.5W of power. The transformer-coupled amp would be ten times more powerful. Output power depends on the design, so there's no way to generalize.

As to the original question, damping factor is important. The higher it is, the better control an amp has over a driver. If the amp's output impedance is 10 Ohms and you use a 600 Ohm headphone, you have a factor of 60:1, or really good control. But if you use an amp with high output impedance (like a lot of OTL amps) around 200-300 Ohms, you'll have a lower damping factor. I think this is a big reason why the 600 Ohm cans sound good - they allow most amps great control.

The opposite is true, as well. If you use 32 Ohm headphones with an amp that has a 200 Ohm output impedance, the damping factor disappears and you get bad performance.

Also, one of the big benefits of running transformer-coupled amps is that transformers really push the output impedance down. You generally get a higher damping factor with them. The drawback is that cheap output transformers don't sound good and the good ones make amps significantly more expensive.

 

[wwmhf]

I also found that the DT990 sounds better on my Little Dot III/IV clone (OTL) amp than on the Bottlehead SEX (transformer coupled) amp. On the other hand, my Sennheiser HD 650 sounds better on the SEX amp
 

 

[Kevin Brown]

Quote:

Yes there is an improvement as you go up their line. And yes the 32Ohm one, to my ears, sounds more similar to the 600Ohm version than it does to the 250Ohm version. The 250Ohm version is more strident with weaker mids and bass. The 600Ohm is fuller sounding with more mids and bass, with very smooth and non fatiguing treble. Of course I don't have any treble sensitivity issues, so it may just be me but I know for a fact the 600Ohm version has a much more pleasing sound than it's other counterparts.
 
As for an amp/dac, you could get the PHENIX G3 as an OTL amp, and get a nuforce uDAC. The G3 will do a good job at driving those babies.
 

 

Would you then recommend the 32 ohm 880 over the 250 one?  I knew the 600 ohm model was the one to get, so I kinda naively figured the 250's would be "better" than the 32's.
 
 
Cool, will research that DAC/amp combo, thanks. 

 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

So I guess since my ROC has 2ohm output, and can output up to 700mw into my T1's, that means the amp has proper control over the driver? That must be why they seem to sound amazing on the ROC.

That would be part of it.  I've read from few different people who professionally design high end speakers that past a damping factor of 20 or so, the difference can sometimes be measurable, but is generally not audible.  I have no idea how much of this applies to to headphones though.  Since the diaphragms have far less mass, electrical damping may not be quite as important so the threshold of audibility for it may be lower than with loudspeakers, but I don't really know.

 

[Zombie_X]

I could not recommend it over the 250Ohm as the 250Ohm has a far more refined sounding sound signature. The 32Ohm is great, but it lacks transparency, bass control, and detail retrieval that the 250Ohm version has.
 
Quote:

Would you then recommend the 32 ohm 880 over the 250 one?  I knew the 600 ohm model was the one to get, so I kinda naively figured the 250's would be "better" than the 32's.
 
 
Cool, will research that DAC/amp combo, thanks.