[F1GTR]

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Originally Posted by Wodgy That's really the best argument. If scientists from the USSR couldn't see our astronauts/artifacts through Earth-based telescopes, they would have raised a huge fuss. To ignore this requires believing in some kind of massive world conspiracy, like both superpowers being controlled by the Illuminati or some other group from behind the scenes. That said, it is *really* easy to hide things from the public. Using a current news event as an example, the Bilderberg Group has been meeting in secret since 1952, yet for the first 40 years after they started meeting, people were accused of being nuts and conspiracy theorists for suggesting the existence of such a group. They were kept well under wrap -- despite hundreds of attendees every year from around the world -- for decades. As far as I know, their meeting minutes have still never been leaked to the public. Similarly, MK-ULTRA remained secret for 21 years, despite thousands of individual participants across two countries, a budget that once made up 6% of the CIA's total annual spending, and at least one death.

Like the Bilderberg group itself? Possibly with input from the Carlyle Group as well?

Looking at this year's list of attendees it sure does create some interesting questions.

http://infowars.com/articles/nwo/bil...g_list2006.htm

 

[00940]

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Originally Posted by 909 Like Dan Rather's fake Bush letter document. The public has a short attention span. We have been feed so much false information it isn't even funny and sometimes it's corrected within a timely manner, but usually it's not within days, weeks, but months later if ever. How many people actually read the editors corrections whereas most, if not all, people read the bold titles on the front-page?

I actually do, it's so funny to read those half-mouthed apologies. We're not speaking here of short attention span. We're speaking of something that happened decades ago. The kind of things that attracts attention.

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I think it is possible that we did landed on the moon, but more probable that we didn't based on nothing more than plain old common sense.

I'm affraid plain old common sense is fairly irrelevant as far as landing on the moon is concerned.

 

[Wodgy]

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Originally Posted by F1GTR Like the Bilderberg group itself? Possibly with input from the Carlyle Group as well? Looking at this year's list of attendees it sure does create some interesting questions. http://infowars.com/articles/nwo/bil...g_list2006.htm

Eh, no. Well, not really. There's no evidence that the Bilderberg meetings are anything more than an old boys' club circle jerk. Just a well-concealed circle jerk for many years.

Allegations that some secret group (the Illuminati, the Masons, the Jews, the UN, insert your pet group here) control world governments through a secret shadow committee are very far fetched to me. That's not to say smaller groups don't use social connections and influence to achieve common goals -- the neoconservatives were a poster child for this at the beginning of this century -- but that's a massive step away from large scale conspiracy theories.

 

[felixkrull6]

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Originally Posted by Wodgy That said, it is *really* easy to hide things from the public. Using a current news event as an example, the Bilderberg Group has been meeting in secret since 1952, yet for the first 40 years after they started meeting, people were accused of being nuts and conspiracy theorists for suggesting the existence of such a group. They were kept well under wrap -- despite hundreds of attendees every year from around the world -- for decades. As far as I know, their meeting minutes have still never been leaked to the public. Similarly, MK-ULTRA remained secret for 21 years, despite thousands of individual participants across two countries, a budget that once made up 6% of the CIA's total annual spending, and at least one death.

I should amend my initial statement of "it is hard to hide large secrets" to "it is hard for governments to hide large secrets that the general public actually gives a hoot about."

I don't think that the vast majority of people care about the Bilderberg Group. I also think the Trilateral Commission and Skull & Bones are pretty mad that you didn't mention them as well. Who cares if a group decides to meet every so often? There are so many of these secret organizations that I can't even keep track of them all. At some point wouldn't they all counteract each other?

As for MK-Ultra, people don't really care about that either. If I'm naive for not believing in mind control than so be it; it's better than being paranoid about it.

Bottomline: There will always be a percentage of people in power, whether they are in governments, NGOs, companies, chuches, etc. that are going to be doing shady things and trying to manipulate things simply because they can. We won't always know exactly what they are doing and that's why there are conspiracy theories in the first place but it just seems to me that even if all the conspiracy theories are true; what are you going to do about it? All I know is this, my family is real, my work is real, my friends are real. If all the conspiracies are true, so be it.

 

[909]

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Originally Posted by marvin We could easily go back to the moon. I don't quite understand where you're coming from with that comment, since we sent things to the moon before Apollo, and have long been able to send things to the outer reaches of the solar system.

yes, but not human beings....

 

[redshifter]

your government is protecting you from the terrible secret of space.

be grateful. pak-chooi!

 

[909]

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Originally Posted by 00940 I'm affraid plain old common sense is fairly irrelevant as far as landing on the moon is concerned.

We supposedly sent a handful of humans 249,600 miles further into outter space then ever before and have never done it again. Why since apparently that technology is really old by now? It has been the norm to stay within Earth's orbit around 400 miles except for those moon missions.

I guess to me it is like taking a quantum leap from the first successful solo airplane flight for over half an hour without refueling in 1906, which probably didn't go more than 20 miles to the 2005 first nonstop solo flight around the world without refueling that went 22,878 miles.

Couple that with claims made by either side the picture starts to get very fuzzy as to whether it happened or not.

 

[909]

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Originally Posted by redshifter your government is protecting you from the terrible secret of space. be grateful. pak-chooi!

no, if it is true they are doing what they do best protecting themselves and the Government's credibility.

 

[Wodgy]

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Originally Posted by felixkrull6 I should amend my initial statement of "it is hard to hide large secrets" to "it is hard for governments to hide large secrets that the general public actually gives a hoot about."

If you change your definition in that way, the inverse is almost a truism. The general public only gives a hoot about football, celebrities, what's on TV, nudity/sexual imagery, and whether they have a job. There are also a few other issues that have broad appeal among certain subgroups (religion, political issues with religious tie-ins, topics related to ethnic identity, etc.), but for the most part, people just don't care about anything. The only reason anyone cared about the moon missions was because it was like a giant football game -- shadowboxing with the USSR -- and because science was slightly more trendy in the '50s and '60s.

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As for MK-Ultra, people don't really care about that either. If I'm naive for not believing in mind control than so be it; it's better than being paranoid about it.

The problem with MK-ULTRA is not mind control. It's that such a significant chunk of taxpayer dollars could go on funding such large scale junk for years despite all the negative ethical issues, the insane, truly mad science involved, and the harm to people, and then attempt to cover it all up (by large-scale shredding of relevant documents) when they realized it was on the verge of being revealed by the media.

The real problem with these secret, concealed projects is that they often start with benign goals and then, without the light of public scrutiny to monitor them, expand in frightening ways, usually to the benefit of people in positions of power (or as a means to suppress political opponents). My favorite example of this is the COINTELPRO program. It started as a secret project to monitor the Communist Party, but gradually expanded in scope to outright harassment of any group those in power felt was dangerous (Martin Luther King, etc.) including break-ins and assaults and beatings. Does anyone really care about this? Probably not, it's not football. That's partly what enables these secret programs to keep going over so many years.

 

[00940]

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Originally Posted by 909 We supposedly sent a handful of humans 249,600 miles further into outter space then ever before and have never done it again. Why since apparently that technology is really old by now? It has been the norm to stay within Earth's orbit around 400 miles except for those moon missions.

Why should we have ? I mean, all we brought back from the moon was useless rocks. It's quite costly to send humans this far to gather so little benefits. The landing on the moon was a costly useless move. "Plain old common sense" is to just forget about such bad ideas. Unmanned missions are way more effective.

Besides isn't the Nasa speaking of the possibility of a manned flight for Mars ?

 

[felixkrull6]

If you change your definition in that way, the inverse is almost a truism. The general public only gives a hoot about football, celebrities, what's on TV, nudity/sexual imagery, and whether they have a job. There are also a few other issues that have broad appeal among certain subgroups (religion, political issues with religious tie-ins, topics related to ethnic identity, etc.), but for the most part, people just don't care about anything. The only reason anyone cared about the moon missions was because it was like a giant football game -- shadowboxing with the USSR -- and because science was slightly more trendy in the '50s and '60s.

Exactly, people actually cared about going to the moon which makes it harder to keep it a secret. I don't know how much of a secret something is if no one cares to find out what it is.


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Originally Posted by Wodgy The problem with MK-ULTRA is not mind control. It's that such a significant chunk of taxpayer dollars could go on funding such large scale junk for years despite all the negative ethical issues, the insane, truly mad science involved, and the harm to people, and then attempt to cover it all up (by large-scale shredding of relevant documents) when they realized it was on the verge of being revealed by the media. The real problem with these secret, concealed projects is that they often start with benign goals and then, without the light of public scrutiny to monitor them, expand in frightening ways, usually to the benefit of people in positions of power (or as a means to suppress political opponents). My favorite example of this is the COINTELPRO program. It started as a secret project to monitor the Communist Party, but gradually expanded in scope to outright harassment of any group those in power felt was dangerous (Martin Luther King, etc.) including break-ins and assaults and beatings. Does anyone really care about this? Probably not, it's not football. That's partly what enables these secret programs to keep going over so many years.

Like I said in an earlier post, certain people in positions of power are going to do shady things, that's a given. You limit their power by giving them less of your hard earned money via taxes but this begins to tread into the political arena so I'll leave it that. I simply accept a certain amount of corruption, cronyism, imbecility, and the such from my government. It's a matter of degree imo so as long as it doesn't get too bad then I'm cool with it.

 

[marvin]

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Originally Posted by 909 I guess to me it is like taking a quantum leap from the first successful solo airplane flight for over half an hour without refueling in 1906, which probably didn't go more than 20 miles to the 2005 first nonstop solo flight around the world without refueling that went 22,878 miles.

Non-stop non-refueled solo flights around the earth were done long before 2005. In fact, Yuri Gagarin did it on April 12, 1961.

 

[mr_baseball_08]

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Originally Posted by felixkrull6 Exactly, people actually cared about going to the moon which makes it harder to keep it a secret. I don't know how much of a secret something is if no one cares to find out what it is.

People didn't care about going to the moon. People cared about beating the Russians. And with a trip to the moon, that would be the ultimate win.

Still not sure if it happened or not. It is hard to believe we wouldn't have gone back in all these years, but then again it would be a huge secret to keep.

Fact of the matter is, we'll never really know unless they openly admit it. Which will never happen. I think one thing we all CAN agree on is the fact that we, personally, don't know that much about space travel, the physics involved with space itself and launching a shuttle, and what could or would happen if we actually got up there.

We only know what we've been told. And that goes for both sides. None of us know enough to make a really strong argument here.

 

[hembergler]

Landing on the moon... definately not possible. And the Mars rovers? Simply small little toy mock ups in a giant sandbox. The photos from the Hubble? A bunch of bored CG artists.

 

[Edwood]