[jefemeister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by felixkrull6 ...The funny thing is that the people who tend to give the government the most credit for maintaining conspiracies also tend to believe that governments are incompetent in all other matters.

LOL. Very True.

 

[Illah]

Yeah the occums razor argument doesn't apply here. To take both sides for a moment...

If we didn't go, like the guy above me said it wouldn't be THAT hard to hide it. Look at the insane amount of censorship that China achieves in today's information age. The Great Firewall of China, the news censorship, the political censorship. That's over a billion people controlled in a country with the largest number of cell phones anywhere in the world (I think some 300-400M cell owners) and an international economy where information could easily 'leak' into the country. Yet they do it. And they do it well.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/view/

In the last block they interview internet savvy, very intellegent college students at a University in China. They've never even heard that there was a revolt in Tianenmen Square. No knowledge whatsoever. And that was recent history broadcast around the world.

As an other example, Japan is very selective about what it will teach students regarding WWII. Many Japanese, despite their extreme tech and business savvy, are simply ignorant and unless they actively seek the information, it's not going to come find them. People more or less are happy to be happy, and what they learn they believe.

The idea that something being hidden is so difficult to achieve that therefore it *must* be true is flawed.

--------------------

On the other hand, we *were* launching rockets, we *did* go back many times after the initial landing, and some of the times we went back weren't major spectacles like the initial landing. No point 'faking' it if nobody is paying attention. Also the technology did exist then. Many of the rockets launched today were designed in the 60's and 70's (the Titan for example). Most of our nuclear stockpile, and the ICBM's that carry them, were designed during that era.

The technology was there, the will was there, the need to honor JFK was there, and the chance to raise a giant middle finger to the USSR was there. In many ways it made sense to go, and the USSR would be tracking every minute of that flight. If we faked it they would have made every effort to expose us.

--Illah

 

[JahJahBinks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illah In the last block they interview internet savvy, very intellegent college students at a University in China. They've never even heard that there was a revolt in Tianenmen Square. No knowledge whatsoever. And that was recent history broadcast around the world.

Partially they avoided talking politics because they did not want to say anything that might be offensive to the government. Remember the secret police in Russia during Stalin regime? That still happens in China. Meaning some day some undercover cops will find your address and take your away and you will not be heard ever again. That's one of the many evil traits of the Communist party is that they don't treat human beings as human beings. Another evil trait is that they lie. Tianenmen Square is a perfect example.

 

[909]

I wouldn't be willing to bet my life that we went to the moon. And I wouldn't be willing ot bet my life that we didn't go. I just really don't know either way. I would like to believe we went, but there is a great deal of spectulation based on (so-called) evidence more than just we didn't go again that raises more than an eyebrow.

The moon is 240,000 miles from earth and no person (beside these moon men) have ever ventured more than 400 miles from earth. There is no evidence that we can even do it today. Additionally, the Apollo missions were the only times ever that humans left the safety of earth orbit and ventured into the deadly hazards of space radiation and would likely have been subjected to lethal radiation. (Radiation Belts)

Reasons we didn't go
http://www.moonmovie.com/moonmovie/default.asp?ID=7

http://top5.wordpress.com/2006/01/11...t-on-the-moon/

http://www.konformist.com/2001/moonhoax.htm

Ten reasons to put a humans (back?) on the moon
http://www.space.com/news/moon_top10_031208-1.html


Debunk the theories we didn't go (but they don't address everything)
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches...n_landing.html

 

[LFF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo Interesting video, but lots of debunking sites, as well. http://www.lunaranomalies.com/fake-moon.htm

Indeed they are interesting. Thanks for posting that link as well. I can't wait to read all of it. Being an astronaut fan since I was little - well - it's needless to say I find both side of the arguement fascinating.

 

[jpelg]

View the trailer.

If O.J. says it didn't happen, then...

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by felixkrull6 Very hard. Forget about uncovering the secret from the outside, what about all the people actually working for the government itself. This wasn't a small project that only a few people knew about, thousands of people actually had a hand in this project. I'm just saying that the odds of the government being able to maintain this secret, even without outsiders questioning it, is extremely low because of internal factors. The funny thing is that the people who tend to give the government the most credit for maintaining conspiracies also tend to believe that governments are incompetent in all other matters.

Since you have the preconceived idea that it is next to impossible to "fake" an event as grandscale as this, then any evidence against it in your eyes has to be false. See what I mean? You aren't receptive to any evidence contrary to that belief, so unless the government and every living member of NASA involved in the project openly admits a staged event, you will continue to believe a coverup of that magnitude could not be accomplished. Now, I'm going to assume (perhaps I shouldn't?) that you've seen or read the alleged evidence that claims the moon landing was staged. That puts you ahead of probably millions that laugh at the concept, yet have never seen nor heard any of the evidence, nor ever will. Factor those people into the equation, and whatever evidence conspiracy theorists have is easily laughed at and disregarded, and more often than not, it is a result of mass ignorance to evidence, both for and against the moon landing. How many people who would swear on their life that the moon landing was real even know anything about it other than a blurb in a history book?

 

[mr_baseball_08]

I don't think it would be that hard to cover up. You'd just have to limit the people who knew the truth about what was going on. Hence a cover up. Not everyone involved in the project had to know the truth. I think it's possible to cover up, but whether it actually happened or not. I have no idea. There's so much evidence that supports either theory.

Edit: Don't forget to factor in a large percentage of people don't really care whether we did or not.

 

[Enverxis]

I'd be willing to bet my life that the USA didn't land on the Moon

 

[felixkrull6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illah The idea that something being hidden is so difficult to achieve that therefore it *must* be true is flawed. -------------------- --Illah

It's more like this: The enormous effort that it takes to hide something that has so many logical explanations leads one to gravitate towards believing the likelihood of the original observation.

It doesn't necessarily make it true, it just makes one more skeptical of the non believers and raises the bar for disproving the original observation.

BTW, I don't believe for a second that the those students did not know that Tiananmen Square had happened. The Chinese aren't as successful as you think at building a Chinese Firewall. A lot of the people know what's up, they have just made a Faustian bargain with the government. We let the communist stay in power as long as you let us do whatever we want with the economy. We'll also let the communist party crack the whip and sabrerattle a couple of times a year but mainly just let us make our money.

 

[909]

another interesting moon read site with some links at page bottom

http://www.geocities.com/apollotruth/

 

[909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enverxis I'd be willing to bet my life that the USA didn't land on the Moon

It's so very easy to say.

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by felixkrull6 People who don't think we went to the moon or conspiracy theorist in general just make me laugh. The amount of time and effort it would take to lie to us still after all these years would be astronomical! It would probably be easier to actually go to the moon than for the government to hold a secret like that for 37 years. Occam's razor people, just remember that every time something like this pops up. As to why we haven't gone back, cost benefit analysis. Huge costs vs unknown benefits along with the fact that there's no more glory to be had. I bet if other countries were constantly going to the moon, we would be to.

Occam's razor is designed to eliminate two explanations with identical (or near identical) explanatory power. The point of the razor is to make a few assumptions as possible while preserving the projectibility of the thesis. When selecting between two (or more) theories of _equal_ explanatory power, it is advised to choose the one requiring the fewest assumptions or entities to be taken for granted. People have misconstrued it to be used as a means of eliminating all but the simplest answer, which is positively asinine especially when considering that the principle may be seen as a procedural suggestion rather than an epistemological fact. Amusingly, the razor makes a very large epistemological assumption to begin with, that is so widely consequential that it's conceivable it'd be defeated by its own principle. Anyhow, it seems like at least some of these 'theories' are claiming that the NASA/Govt/The Man explanation isn't of equal explanatory power/value. Secondly, if someone were to come out and say it didn't happen, people would give more or less the response you just gave, which makes the process of keeping it a secret relatively easy as incredulity will pick up most of the work. I'm not endorsing the 'we didn't go to the moon' theories, I'm just commenting on this particular point. I'm actually pretty sceptical of the claims that we didn't go to the moon.

 

[00940]

It doesn't matter what 80% of the people are believing based on newspapers. It doesn't matter how many are searching for informations about what's happening on ill-informed websites. What matters in our open societies is what the media can dig and publish.

Comparing China to the US or Europe is like comparing apples and oranges. China can alter the truth by censoring and this censoring is obvious for everyone. The problem with censoring is that you know that they're hiding something.

Considering the size of the project and the numbers of people involved as a factor preventing secret is not dumb at all. You can, in a free society, pick your car and meet all those people who worked for the NASA at that time. That's not possible in China.

 

[seanohue]

People say the holocaust did not happen, does that mean it didnt? Ignorance is bliss fellas.