ProjectDenz
Headphoneus Supremus
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Artisan sounds like some Renaissance period throwback to bedazzle hipsters into buying it.
Denon Officially Announces Its New Headphones!
- Thread starter jude
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sridhar3
Headphoneus Supremus
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Lewis Black had a great rant in his "Back in Black" segment on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart regarding the (mis)use of the word "Artisan" by the marketing departments of various commercial enterprises. I think he focused on Dunkin' Donuts Artisan Bagels, Sargento Cheese and Tostitos.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-may-1-2012/back-in-black---artisanal-foods
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-may-1-2012/back-in-black---artisanal-foods
IEMCrazy
Longwindeus Supremus
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Quote:
They don't seem any more portable to me than any other full sized headphone I've ever seen or owned. They don't fold, they aren't on the ear, they aren't made of silicone. They have the Cruiser, Raver, and Freak lines for portability. The Maniac seems to have no insinuation of portability beyond any other can other than the ipod control cable, which still doesn't imply portability so much as assuming music listeners have an iPod. Also, if they try to be at all bass heavy, and given the statements on the drivers, we can assume they do that at least as well as the old models, they seriously need to be ported, and thus not highly isolating. That's why Ultrasone, K550, etc are getting a lot of praise as a good sounding actually closed back headphone. But none of those are known for killer bass like Denons.
Closed back high-end still seems to be somewhat niche, and niche seems to be exactly what Denon is trying to distance themselves from. I could be wrong, but I find it substantially likely that they will be the same or only slightly better than the old ones in terms of isolation. They'd still need big porting with the large diaphragm driver designs to avoid distortion.
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+1, you've hit it exactly.
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If they wanted to move away from the market of the old niche series due to sales, fine. The Raver, Cruiser, Freak lines seem like an excellent way of moving mass market to do that. It's the Maniac line that makes no sense. From their own descriptions they're targeting this "new market" you're talking about but they went out of their way to maintain a driver and price point that targets solely the same old niche as the old line. It seems more like they wanted to go bold and move to a new audience, but weren't entirely sure if they wanted to abandon their old one so they tried pleasing both at once. If you handed any audiophile-flat EQ headphone to the "new market" former Beats, Bose customers they'd reject them as garbage. Not enough bass, boring etc. Targeting a new market if your old one was failing = good. Targeting a hybrid market that doesn't exist and you lack the marketing machine to make it exist = bad. Building an audiophile (flat) headphone designed for a young & hip former Beats crowd at high prices is like making a prize winning Porterhouse for a vegan farming convention.
Quote:
Apple is a different story entirely as is iPod & iPad. Apple, first and foremost is a brand-management marketing firm, not a tech firm. They have been since the 80's They've had some good tech but that was through skilled licensing and aquisitions. They follow a market like a shark, wait until its about to be successful, then move in for the kill. They generally know the direction of a market before they introduce it, then present it as an all new huge risk. Dumb as a fox.... iPod specifically had inside knowledge of the trending of digital distribution, specifically inside knowledge that they intended to create the unified system to make it happen. And credit to Jobs, he was a lousy inventor (despite post humous praise) who rarely invented a thing. He was a marketing genius. And he was a brilliant UI designer. He made things simple, well laid out, easy to understand, which was the primary hinderance of technology adoption.
Apple created new markets because they released new technology that previously didn't exist in such a package. MP3 players were old, but a unified system with easy controls and large storage was new. Thin, light, always-on tablets simply didn't exist. Mobile computing was slow and ungainly. iPad was the first to solve that (an idea that existed for many years in sci-fi but the public never adopted.) . The trick was selling the idea, but with Apple's known marketing engine that wasn't so difficult.
Beats were disruptive by introducing mass market flashy headphones instead of buds/IEMs that catered toward mass market music tastes (distorted bass.) Again, more success of brand management than anything else. No celebrity endorsements would have left Beats as a failed set of ugly headphones. Instead, like a toy company, they knew how to appeal to kids and set the price JUST high enough to be expensive and JUST low enough to be tempting enough for people/parents to say "ok, maybe for Christmas."
New Denon headphones are just new headphones. There's nothing disruptive about them, and even if there were, Denon isn't known as a marketing powerhouse like Apple. Maybe they can vie for shelf space in Beat's court....but at those MSRPs and minimal brand recognition among the masses, good luck. Price is what makes a product sink or swim. I can promise you there's no magic market for $1200 headphones out in the mainstream, and I'm not even sure Apple's marketing could create one. $1200 is firmly in audiophile land. The niche you claim they're trying to get away from. Heck, $1200 is scarce even in audiophile land, though reading head-fi too often may obscure that fact. It's a price point for those who are interested in exotic audio. The style may tell us they're trying to get away from the angsty niche, but the price tells us they aren't.
Quote:
iPad, again was a different example. There was demand for always-on fast computing without huge battery requirements. The trick was proving the usefulness of such a gadget to the masses. Former tablets were not tablets so much as laptops without keyboards. I had one. It was painful. Slow boots, ran hot, and guzzled battery from the huge heavy cell. It wasn't something to quick pick up and use.
And again the iPad was still based on the predictions of how the internet was trending in usage. The iPad was also a pet project of Jobs for decades, including the badly failed early experiment with the Newton, before it was finally the time to make it, and even they they had to detour to the phone first. It was a product long in design in many variations waiting for the right time to market it, and required the full might of a known marketing giant to do it.
Denon headphones are....denon headphones. There's nothing technologically redefining about them. HE-400 is more disruptive. New driver tech at a great price. That's not to say HE-400 is disruptive, but by contrast it would be more so. And they're up against bigger marketing giants than themselves in Beats/Monster, Skullcandy, and the Harmon juggernaught should they continue ramping up the AKG presence.
Quote:
It probably relates more to how AudioTechnica (also Japanese) calls all their higher end ones "Art" in the model name
They don't seem any more portable to me than any other full sized headphone I've ever seen or owned. They don't fold, they aren't on the ear, they aren't made of silicone. They have the Cruiser, Raver, and Freak lines for portability. The Maniac seems to have no insinuation of portability beyond any other can other than the ipod control cable, which still doesn't imply portability so much as assuming music listeners have an iPod. Also, if they try to be at all bass heavy, and given the statements on the drivers, we can assume they do that at least as well as the old models, they seriously need to be ported, and thus not highly isolating. That's why Ultrasone, K550, etc are getting a lot of praise as a good sounding actually closed back headphone. But none of those are known for killer bass like Denons.
Closed back high-end still seems to be somewhat niche, and niche seems to be exactly what Denon is trying to distance themselves from. I could be wrong, but I find it substantially likely that they will be the same or only slightly better than the old ones in terms of isolation. They'd still need big porting with the large diaphragm driver designs to avoid distortion.
Quote:
+1, you've hit it exactly.
Quote:
If they wanted to move away from the market of the old niche series due to sales, fine. The Raver, Cruiser, Freak lines seem like an excellent way of moving mass market to do that. It's the Maniac line that makes no sense. From their own descriptions they're targeting this "new market" you're talking about but they went out of their way to maintain a driver and price point that targets solely the same old niche as the old line. It seems more like they wanted to go bold and move to a new audience, but weren't entirely sure if they wanted to abandon their old one so they tried pleasing both at once. If you handed any audiophile-flat EQ headphone to the "new market" former Beats, Bose customers they'd reject them as garbage. Not enough bass, boring etc. Targeting a new market if your old one was failing = good. Targeting a hybrid market that doesn't exist and you lack the marketing machine to make it exist = bad. Building an audiophile (flat) headphone designed for a young & hip former Beats crowd at high prices is like making a prize winning Porterhouse for a vegan farming convention.
Quote:
Apple is a different story entirely as is iPod & iPad. Apple, first and foremost is a brand-management marketing firm, not a tech firm. They have been since the 80's They've had some good tech but that was through skilled licensing and aquisitions. They follow a market like a shark, wait until its about to be successful, then move in for the kill. They generally know the direction of a market before they introduce it, then present it as an all new huge risk. Dumb as a fox.... iPod specifically had inside knowledge of the trending of digital distribution, specifically inside knowledge that they intended to create the unified system to make it happen. And credit to Jobs, he was a lousy inventor (despite post humous praise) who rarely invented a thing. He was a marketing genius. And he was a brilliant UI designer. He made things simple, well laid out, easy to understand, which was the primary hinderance of technology adoption.
Apple created new markets because they released new technology that previously didn't exist in such a package. MP3 players were old, but a unified system with easy controls and large storage was new. Thin, light, always-on tablets simply didn't exist. Mobile computing was slow and ungainly. iPad was the first to solve that (an idea that existed for many years in sci-fi but the public never adopted.) . The trick was selling the idea, but with Apple's known marketing engine that wasn't so difficult.
Beats were disruptive by introducing mass market flashy headphones instead of buds/IEMs that catered toward mass market music tastes (distorted bass.) Again, more success of brand management than anything else. No celebrity endorsements would have left Beats as a failed set of ugly headphones. Instead, like a toy company, they knew how to appeal to kids and set the price JUST high enough to be expensive and JUST low enough to be tempting enough for people/parents to say "ok, maybe for Christmas."
New Denon headphones are just new headphones. There's nothing disruptive about them, and even if there were, Denon isn't known as a marketing powerhouse like Apple. Maybe they can vie for shelf space in Beat's court....but at those MSRPs and minimal brand recognition among the masses, good luck. Price is what makes a product sink or swim. I can promise you there's no magic market for $1200 headphones out in the mainstream, and I'm not even sure Apple's marketing could create one. $1200 is firmly in audiophile land. The niche you claim they're trying to get away from. Heck, $1200 is scarce even in audiophile land, though reading head-fi too often may obscure that fact. It's a price point for those who are interested in exotic audio. The style may tell us they're trying to get away from the angsty niche, but the price tells us they aren't.
Quote:
iPad, again was a different example. There was demand for always-on fast computing without huge battery requirements. The trick was proving the usefulness of such a gadget to the masses. Former tablets were not tablets so much as laptops without keyboards. I had one. It was painful. Slow boots, ran hot, and guzzled battery from the huge heavy cell. It wasn't something to quick pick up and use.
And again the iPad was still based on the predictions of how the internet was trending in usage. The iPad was also a pet project of Jobs for decades, including the badly failed early experiment with the Newton, before it was finally the time to make it, and even they they had to detour to the phone first. It was a product long in design in many variations waiting for the right time to market it, and required the full might of a known marketing giant to do it.
Denon headphones are....denon headphones. There's nothing technologically redefining about them. HE-400 is more disruptive. New driver tech at a great price. That's not to say HE-400 is disruptive, but by contrast it would be more so. And they're up against bigger marketing giants than themselves in Beats/Monster, Skullcandy, and the Harmon juggernaught should they continue ramping up the AKG presence.
Quote:
It probably relates more to how AudioTechnica (also Japanese) calls all their higher end ones "Art" in the model name
obobskivich
Headphoneus Supremus
It probably relates more to how AudioTechnica (also Japanese) calls all their higher end ones "Art" in the model name
AT's have been "ART Monitor" for at least 15 years; if not longer. It's just what their closed headphones have been labeled. The open-back models are accordingly "AIR Monitor" and the woodies usually get their own names (Vintage, Sovereign, Raffinato, Grandioso, etc). I actually don't see Audio-Technica driving many trends; just like Grado and Koss, they seem to be left on the side of the road as far as the mainstream is concerned. IMHO it has to do with their colored/unique house signatures and often confusing model ranges.
I see the new D7100 as being just like the D7000 - a halo product; it's expensive and it stands out in press releases, enough to get the kids looking. Then they offer them a huge range of less expensive models. Ford has been doing it for 50 years. It works. And Denon isn't the first one to do this with headphones. The Germans figured this out more or less unilaterally by 2008. They're taking the Heinz approach: offer enough products that you'll eventually appeal to everyone. They're using the halo to get people in the door and looking (so to speak). While the D7100 probably won't sell many units, just like the HD 800, GS 1000, and T1, it will create buzz on mainstream tech fora and in other outlets if for no other reason than for people to joke about how much it costs. It builds mindshare though.
I think the assumptions about "typical Bose and Beats customers" are best left at the door as well.
Nordwestlicht
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The D7100s look very interesting to me.
But if it's like it was with D2000, D5000 and D7000 the case, the lower model (D600) will sound very similar.
Okay, some people disagree that the "old" DX000 models (and there I even mean the old models of the now "old" models [before 2011 or so]) sound that similar, but that's the way it is for me and it might be that way in my little world known as "My Brain™", because I'm not a snake-oil believer either (I can't/don't believe in the often praised aftermarket cables' sound, e.g. - because it's really kind of ridiculous for me...). [People often tend to hear/believe things, that can't be verifiable proven. But that's a huge part of the hobby "hi-fi", I guess... okay enough off-topic for now...]
Nevertheless every different headphone I have heard -from cheap ear buds to SR009- sounds more or less different and by looking at those new Denon-babies, I think they'll probably sound (very) different to their predecessors.
That said, I really like the sound of the DX000 line very much and I'm kind of sad that they are canceled now to be replaced by the new ones instead of keeping them additionally. But I guess that wouldn't make any sense to Denon.
If the new Denon branded headphones are truly closed cans, they won't be able to fully satisfy me, I guess. Till now, I've never liked closed cans, because I'm very sensitive for hearing resonances caused by the closed design of headphones, that make them sound kind of unnatural to me. With the right damping you can successfully tame those resonances in many cases, but not fully eliminate. If so (-I mean if they are totally closed-) I really won't understand it. At least the D7100 should be exclusively designed for in-home-use and therefore open or like the DX000 models kind of semi-open to avoid or reduce that resonances in advance and to offer a more natural sound like my favorite headphones, the HD800s.
At the moment it's all speculative, because I have of cause not heard the new Denons, and I also try to fight my "must-hear---want-to-try---have-to-buy---new-headphones-I-really-don't-need"-addiction...
I'm very very very glad with my modded HD800 a.t.m. and my cupboard is already full of fine headphones I barely listen too... what a waste...
But, as I said in the beginning: The D7100 model looks very interesting to me... it's tempting... but...... MUST RESIST...
Right now the Headphone-Borg in my brain says: "Resistance is futile!"...
PS: When exactly will D600 and D7100 be out in Germany/Europe?
But if it's like it was with D2000, D5000 and D7000 the case, the lower model (D600) will sound very similar.
Okay, some people disagree that the "old" DX000 models (and there I even mean the old models of the now "old" models [before 2011 or so]) sound that similar, but that's the way it is for me and it might be that way in my little world known as "My Brain™", because I'm not a snake-oil believer either (I can't/don't believe in the often praised aftermarket cables' sound, e.g. - because it's really kind of ridiculous for me...). [People often tend to hear/believe things, that can't be verifiable proven. But that's a huge part of the hobby "hi-fi", I guess... okay enough off-topic for now...]
Nevertheless every different headphone I have heard -from cheap ear buds to SR009- sounds more or less different and by looking at those new Denon-babies, I think they'll probably sound (very) different to their predecessors.
That said, I really like the sound of the DX000 line very much and I'm kind of sad that they are canceled now to be replaced by the new ones instead of keeping them additionally. But I guess that wouldn't make any sense to Denon.
If the new Denon branded headphones are truly closed cans, they won't be able to fully satisfy me, I guess. Till now, I've never liked closed cans, because I'm very sensitive for hearing resonances caused by the closed design of headphones, that make them sound kind of unnatural to me. With the right damping you can successfully tame those resonances in many cases, but not fully eliminate. If so (-I mean if they are totally closed-) I really won't understand it. At least the D7100 should be exclusively designed for in-home-use and therefore open or like the DX000 models kind of semi-open to avoid or reduce that resonances in advance and to offer a more natural sound like my favorite headphones, the HD800s.
At the moment it's all speculative, because I have of cause not heard the new Denons, and I also try to fight my "must-hear---want-to-try---have-to-buy---new-headphones-I-really-don't-need"-addiction...
I'm very very very glad with my modded HD800 a.t.m. and my cupboard is already full of fine headphones I barely listen too... what a waste...
But, as I said in the beginning: The D7100 model looks very interesting to me... it's tempting... but...... MUST RESIST...
Right now the Headphone-Borg in my brain says: "Resistance is futile!"...
PS: When exactly will D600 and D7100 be out in Germany/Europe?
keanex
Keeper of The All-New Headphone Buyer's Guide
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obobskivich
Headphoneus Supremus
Unless you get an O2
Or any of the other mess of amplifiers that have relatively low Zout, unless it's impedance is relatively flat to begin with (like the current Denon models), and then you have even more flexibility.
Here are photos I took while at Denon's U.S. offices:
Which ones are these again, part of the Urban Raver Line?
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Simple fact. Go to Amazon. Look at headphones. go to over-ear models. click on avg. review. Denon Ah-d2000.
Those headphones are the reason so many people end up on this site. People see the price and the reviews and they head over here for more information. People get so impressed by the amount of information and see how much people love their headphones. Within a month or two of the release of these new headphones you will see,...customers who bought this or viewed this item also viewed Denon Ah-d600 or Artison 7100.
Most high end can's are kind of ugly (unless you're an audiophile it just grows on you.) When people see this $1200 headphone they will be intrigued. Maybe find their way over to head-fi. When they do it won't take long for the to instantly find all the raving reviews of the D2000's. So they might sell some of their new models but i think marketing them will just lock in more customers for the D2000
Those headphones are the reason so many people end up on this site. People see the price and the reviews and they head over here for more information. People get so impressed by the amount of information and see how much people love their headphones. Within a month or two of the release of these new headphones you will see,...customers who bought this or viewed this item also viewed Denon Ah-d600 or Artison 7100.
Most high end can's are kind of ugly (unless you're an audiophile it just grows on you.) When people see this $1200 headphone they will be intrigued. Maybe find their way over to head-fi. When they do it won't take long for the to instantly find all the raving reviews of the D2000's. So they might sell some of their new models but i think marketing them will just lock in more customers for the D2000
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oops waste of time writing that i guess. just read someone said they are cancelling the D series
Anyone seen how easy it would be to take the back of that 600 and put a screen in it? Uh-oh....... hope it sounds good
Anyone seen how easy it would be to take the back of that 600 and put a screen in it? Uh-oh....... hope it sounds good
IEMCrazy
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Quote:
+1. I (strongly) prefer my tubey Lyr with my HD650s and HE-400s, but I absolutely love my D5ks on my O2
I wish the build were more robust....I always feel like I'm going to break the power switch and the jacks.... but it sounds great.
Quote:
I think you won the funny of the thread with this
Yes, that D600 at $500 is the replacement for both D2k and D5k.... Nice, isn't it?
Unless you get an O2
+1. I (strongly) prefer my tubey Lyr with my HD650s and HE-400s, but I absolutely love my D5ks on my O2
Quote:
I think you won the funny of the thread with this
yliu
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Wow, very unique looking headphones!
elnero
Headphoneus Supremus
It looks like I'm in the minority, I don't mind the look of the AH-D7100's, especially in the pictures Jude took of them in a real world environment. Have I seen things I like better? Sure, but then I've also seen more expensive that IMO look worse. I look at the D7100's and can't help but think they look very inviting, like they would be very comfortable. I'm certainly very curious about how they'll sound.
deepshikhanc
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I am definitely holding on to my D5000's. I'm curious to see the rest of their new line-ups, though !
IEMCrazy
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Quote:
For all their hideousness, the pads do look comfortable. Moreso than the old ones. But looking at it in no way screams $1200 flagship either. $400 mid-fi maybe. $1200 flagship, not a chance. At the $1k+ price point one expects something that looks either exotic, sophisticated, or industrially robust. These don't look like any of that.
Remember, a few short years ago, $500 was really, really, really expensive for a headphone even for audiophiles. The idea of $1000-2000 being acceptable is an entirely new idea. The other flagships at least try to look exotic (even if they manage to look ugly in the process...HD800, Stax, etc.)
For all their hideousness, the pads do look comfortable. Moreso than the old ones. But looking at it in no way screams $1200 flagship either. $400 mid-fi maybe. $1200 flagship, not a chance. At the $1k+ price point one expects something that looks either exotic, sophisticated, or industrially robust. These don't look like any of that.
Remember, a few short years ago, $500 was really, really, really expensive for a headphone even for audiophiles. The idea of $1000-2000 being acceptable is an entirely new idea. The other flagships at least try to look exotic (even if they manage to look ugly in the process...HD800, Stax, etc.)
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