[keanex]

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why such low impedance for the $1200 flagship, who in their right mind will use it straight out of a portable anyway.  Practically limits the headphone to portable listening once you consider damping factor.  Anything with output impedance over 1.25 will have poor impedance matching, and good luck finding a desktop amplifier with these specs.
 
Kind of makes sense though as the new Fostex is going after the audiophile market, and the new Denon line target mainstream market.
 
Ahh well should make an excellent portable headphone at least.

 
Impedance has nothing to do with sound quality.

 

[mastershake2393]

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Impedance has nothing to do with sound quality.

 

 

[sridhar3]

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Impedance has nothing to do with sound quality.

 
Oh boy, here we go.

 

[IEMCrazy]

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There's just so many things that doesn't make a lot of sense:
 
1) If going more towards mainstream market it doesn't make sense with a ruler-flat response, a 5~7dB boost in bass (compare 10dB in Beats or 15dB in XB500) would appeal more than zero boost in bass for "mainstream" market which hears the 5~7dB boost in bass as how an audiophile would percieve Sennheiser HD800 or something, the 5~7dB is the "flat" response to them and zero bass boost sounds like bass recessed.
 
2) Since when did fashion inclined/hippy younger kids especially start pulling $500+ on a pair of headphones. I know it exists Detox but yea this is more of an exception due to years of "pumping" out the Beats brand which finally resulted in being able to milk out the last bit of cash of some blindfolded kids with richer parents.
 
3) Denon, who or what the heck is Denon? <= when asked people on the streets. Needs lots of marketing for starters to get the brand recognition of something like Beats.
 
4) Denon's old fanbase ("audiophile base") aren't exactly amused by the new look even if they happen to sound great, it's a bit of a "backstab" for showing huge support earlier to get treated as "sorry it's not where the money is", so much for that.
 
5) Too much risk on state here, it's a bit like doing an "All-in" in poker, either Denon succeeds or they'll be in great trouble if they don't manage to pull this off. 

I'd be inclined to agree about kids had the HD650 thread not just involved a few of us helping a 14yo select a ~1k SS amp with eyes toward a Phonitor and flagship cans in a few years.  Some folks are born lucky

 
Agree with all the rest though.  Denon has always been a hi-fi store brand.  Trying to go mainstream is strange, and trying to do it with audiophile pricing is stranger.  5 years ago no audiophile would have considered spending $1k on a headphone.   Times have changed here in audiophile land for some unexplained reason (being lead around by marketing teams at the major companies it seems), but in the mass market?  I don't see it.
Quote:

There's a CNet article that actually gives them a good vote for sound quality, and of the two impressions given they're not bad headphones.

 
CNet?  I wouldn't care what a CNet review said if the item were free.  Their reviews often read like generic blobs of semi-PR-driven text from someone who never tried the product and is normally confined to reviewing USB hubs.
 
Quote:

 
LOL

 
Quote:

"Denon has identified four key consumer lifestyle groups that they have targeted for their headphone designs: Music Maniac, Urban Raver, Globe Cruiser, Exercise Freak."
I'd say that tells a big part of the story. The new line up seems much more driven by the marketing department than anyone else.Also, a few weeks ago I asked Mark about the DxK line disappearing and he said "we (Lawton) are not going anywhere".

 
Exactly, whenever it starts like that it tells you a lot.  It's targeted toward lifestyle groups.  Identified as categories by what seems like a focus group.  Lifestyle by definition implies form over function and is purely marketing drivel.  I'm not even sure Denon marketing came up with that, it sounds like they outsourced the entire headphone decision to some external firm who came back with "we've identified four lifestyle groups you should target based on location, demographic, disposable income, and adaptability to expesnsive electronics."  The problem is they identified four lifestyle groups all within the same lifestyle demographic.  Look at those names "Maniac, Raver, Cruiser, and Freak."  Those "lifestyle groups" seem to all be a single lifestyle group: Urban youth.  That is the only group that reacts positively to  otherwise insulting titles from the "hipster vernacular (ed. IV)"  It may also indicate a leaning toward a female demographic given the naming schemes.  Maybe trying to move in on a territory that's unexploited in the headphone realm.
 
But the idea is it's a falsely placed demographic.  I can see "Urban Raver"....IEMs, hipster stuff for the hip-hop crowd.  I can see Exercise Freak for the "active lifestyles" crowd.   Globe Cruiser seems like a misplaced demogrphic, presumably for the travel set.  But the travel set is generally the business set, and hip "globe cruiser" branding won't jive with that set.  And the worst is "Music Maniac" to represent their audiophile line.  We all know how many levels that branding and styling indicates a lack of understanding of this demographic.  Which is also most bizarre because this demographic is Denon's core demographic as a brand.  How could they miss their own major demographic so severely?  I don't see the 2312ci being hipster styled....
 
 
 
Also, has anyone noticed that the most vocal number of people chiming in to say "I really like the design and want to buy it" seem to be new sign-ups (Junior Head-Fi'er status) to say so.  It may not be that it's placed promotion, but it's still interesting that the people most interested in it seem to have recently found H-F or have been lurking, only to chime in on the new Denons.  Again indicating a new market rather than appealing to the established audiophile market....at audiophile prices. 

 

[Tilpo]

Impedance has nothing to do with sound quality.

+1.

While it does partly determine how easy the headphone is to drive, it does not directly affect sound quality in any way. If it does, then it's a side effect of something else, as impedance on its own shouldn't really affect sound quality.

 

[DoctaCosmos]

Do those headphones look like you could mod them?  don't know but boy are they going to look ugly if someone tries to make the wooden cup in those deeper...yikes~~!   
If Denon new they could make superior drivers, why would they put them in a body that could be modded when they already have perfectly built housings for modding, the original Ah-D line.
Kill two birds with one stone.
People will buy the new cans for the drivers and then eventually look to buy the older ones too so they can throw the new drivers in the old housings and have them modded.
Can't help but think the 7100 drivers are going to sound amazing in an LA7000.  It will be done and REALLY REALLY REALLY don't think denon is going to risk having it any other way.
Ive already got a D2000 and plan on being the first one to have this done.  
I would be very interested to see what Mark Lawton thinks about this idea.  Guess we won't know till they are available.

 

[keanex]

Quote:

+1.
While it does partly determine how easy the headphone is to drive, it does not directly affect sound quality in any way. If it does, then it's a side effect of something else, as impedance on its own shouldn't really affect sound quality.

 
Indeed D7000, every Grado, and every Audio Technica. Is someone going to tell me they aren't great headphones because of low sensitivity? 

 

[DoctaCosmos]

Also just realized that the money i would spend just buying the 7100's would be more than enough to get me a pair of Lcd-2's or HD700. Don't really see the 7100's drivers conquering the legendary orthodynamic drivers of an Lcd-2

 

[driver 8]

Sealed headphones are generally more expensive than open ones.

 

[Deep1923]

I'm not sure. I have ordered level 2 kit for my denon d5000 (original lawton tuning, angle pads + custom wood chambers)from lawton two weeks ago. Now I consider to cancel it. I fear that the new models sound much better. I'm from europe and still have to wait 5 weeks more until the unit arrives.

 

[musubi1000]

I'd be inclined to agree about kids had the HD650 thread not just involved a few of us helping a 14yo select a ~1k SS amp with eyes toward a Phonitor and flagship cans in a few years.  Some folks are born lucky

Agree with all the rest though.  Denon has always been a hi-fi store brand.  Trying to go mainstream is strange, and trying to do it with audiophile pricing is stranger.  5 years ago no audiophile would have considered spending $1k on a headphone.   Times have changed here in audiophile land for some unexplained reason (being lead around by marketing teams at the major companies it seems), but in the mass market?  I don't see it.

CNet?  I wouldn't care what a CNet review said if the item were free.  Their reviews often read like generic blobs of semi-PR-driven text from someone who never tried the product and is normally confined to reviewing USB hubs.


LOL :atsmile:


Exactly, whenever it starts like that it tells you a lot.  It's targeted toward lifestyle groups.  Identified as categories by what seems like a focus group.  Lifestyle by definition implies form over function and is purely marketing drivel.  I'm not even sure Denon marketing came up with that, it sounds like they outsourced the entire headphone decision to some external firm who came back with "we've identified four lifestyle groups you should target based on location, demographic, disposable income, and adaptability to expesnsive electronics."  The problem is they identified four lifestyle groups all within the same lifestyle demographic.  Look at those names "Maniac, Raver, Cruiser, and Freak."  Those "lifestyle groups" seem to all be a single lifestyle group: Urban youth.  That is the only group that reacts positively to  otherwise insulting titles from the "hipster vernacular (ed. IV)"  It may also indicate a leaning toward a female demographic given the naming schemes.  Maybe trying to move in on a territory that's unexploited in the headphone realm.

But the idea is it's a falsely placed demographic.  I can see "Urban Raver"....IEMs, hipster stuff for the hip-hop crowd.  I can see Exercise Freak for the "active lifestyles" crowd.   Globe Cruiser seems like a misplaced demogrphic, presumably for the travel set.  But the travel set is generally the business set, and hip "globe cruiser" branding won't jive with that set.  And the worst is "Music Maniac" to represent their audiophile line.  We all know how many levels that branding and styling indicates a lack of understanding of this demographic.  Which is also most bizarre because this demographic is Denon's core demographic as a brand.  How could they miss their own major demographic so severely?  I don't see the 2312ci being hipster styled....



Also, has anyone noticed that the most vocal number of people chiming in to say "I really like the design and want to buy it" seem to be new sign-ups (Junior Head-Fi'er status) to say so.  It may not be that it's placed promotion, but it's still interesting that the people most interested in it seem to have recently found H-F or have been lurking, only to chime in on the new Denons.  Again indicating a new market rather than appealing to the established audiophile market....at audiophile prices. 

I couldn't agree more. There is a much much larger world of people who enjoy music outside of headfi. If we were to show them the traditional headphone say D2 5 7 K and the new D7100 which do you think the peeps outside of head fi would choose?

 

[Malevolent]

Quote:

I couldn't agree more. There is a much much larger world of people who enjoy music outside of headfi. If we were to show them the traditional headphone say D2 5 7 K and the new D7100 which do you think the peeps outside of head fi would choose?

 
Even before I became a member of Head-Fi, and way before I was interested in headphones as a hobby (obsession), I would have chosen the simple, but elegant design of the DX000 series.
 
It's just a dangerous path Denon are taking right now. They are alienating their core fanbase by introducing a radical (for Denon) design whilst pricing their cans out of the reach of the young ones who simply adore the Beats trend. Moreover, looking like Beats isn't going to guarantee success; you also need celebrity endorsements and loads of marketing.
 
To be honest, I'm still not sure who Denon are trying to market these headphones to. The traditional headphone fans, or the Beats loving crowd?

 

[IEMCrazy]

Quote:

I couldn't agree more. There is a much much larger world of people who enjoy music outside of headfi. If we were to show them the traditional headphone say D2 5 7 K and the new D7100 which do you think the peeps outside of head fi would choose?

 
Very true, but when you tell them that all the above cost between $500 and $1200, how many would choose any of them? There's a much larger world of people who enjoy music outside of headfi, but there aren't that many people that willingly throw $1k, or even $500 at a headphone outside of headfi

  If you want to sell it for $1k, you want to sell it here. And that's not going over so well.
 
For the masses, even the masses seeking the "high end" they may be willing to push up to where audiophile was 5 years ago (and honestly should still be.)  I can see the masses spending $300-400 if they want a really high end headphone for home listening.  Something exotic to them.   I can see the elite masses pushing to maybe $500 for something really exotic and high end.   Over $500 you're in the obsessive headphone listener crowd.   These things cost more than my L/R speakers.  And I can assure you those speakers stomp any headphones in everything but detail retrieval and isolation.  

 
I can see at $500 some advantage there....it would certainly do better with lesser equipment than, say HD650 which prefers going nuts over your amp and source.  But for the maniac "artisan" line, aren't they supposed to be selling it to folks who buy their amps?  I have a Denon amp.  These headphones couldn't clash more with its visual cues.

 

[hekeli]

The others are a bit meh, but D7100 looks actually pretty nice to me. I couldn't care less whom or how it's marketed if it works. I would certainly consider it if it was comfortable and something like cheaper but same performing as TH900, that price is just crazy.

 
I don't get what's special about D5/7000 anyway, nothing there stands out. Sure the wood is marginally nicer looking than plastic but I don't get the "woodies" anyway.. I guess I'm hard to impress.

 

[CantScareMe]

A couple of points i want to make: 
 
1) http://www.strata-gee.com/2012/05/30/maybe-late-to-the-party-but-denon-headphones-arrive-in-a-big-way/
 
This link was posted earlier. Surprised people haven't talked about it as it seems it's full of really good info. Quote:
 
''What others do…
Most brands, Shimonishi taught reporters, go to China and buy off-the-shelf products and stamp their logos on it. Not Denon! This new line of headphones – Denon releases call it a line extension – features no less than 18 patent-pending designs and technologies.    ''

 

Does this mean that denon are making the drivers?? I think it does.

 

2) Cnet. 

Full of the stuff you don't like to step on when walking on the pavement. From head to toe. Unfortunately, what hifi is also often taken to be as such, which i think is a real shame. For headfi purposes, I've found some real true golden nuggets on that site. They said the dt770 pro's were awful unlike many on here. Correct. Same with the ibasso d4 and a handful of other amps/headphones. Okay, if you don't belive in cable sq, just disregard that section BUT i still insist that the best review and subsequent purchase i made in this land of audiophilia came from there. A simple power conditioner. It was one of the cheap ones for like £30 or something, that improved the sq from the fiio e9 by at least 100%. Obviously headfi is the number one undisputed king for headphone reviews, but I'm also waiting to see what whathifi have to say about the denons....

 

3) Looks.

I've just got to admit something here. So i'll take my time.

 

A few months ago news of the hd700 broke out and i couldn't quite believe the type of response it got. Literally everyone on headfi was just screamiing about it's looks. 
'looks cheap
'looks ugly'
'Don't care too much about how it sounds, if it looks like that i ain't touching it'
 
......And so on.
 
Well, I voiced my opinion, which was simple and clear. These guys are farts. So many of us are spending so much time and money trying to squeeze out every iota of possible sound quality from our music, yet we have people putting aesthetics at a higher priority. Obviously, you can imagine the response i got.
 
Anyway, the other week I cleaned my room thoroughly and tried to make it look nice. Cleaned the furniture, carpets and blinds. Polished (actually just wiped) surfaces. I arranged things on the bookshelf in a neat way and relocated a whole load of items to their proper place- the trash cans. It took me like a day or two, but after i finished I just, well, took a few steps back and looked at the result.
Surprisingly, probably the most attractive feature of this room were three headphones 'floating,' on sennheiser hh10 stands, in front of the bookshelf.  Akg k550, Ultrasone ed8 and of course the d7000. Seriously, these three gave this place a sophistication that it doesn't really deserve.
 
Very beautiful headphones. Akg, ultrasone and denon clearly put a lot of effort into making sure their image creates this ambience of sophistication wherever they may be. Most importantly, neither of the three just look like a piece of machinery or rather a piece of equipment. You know what, when seeing them three like that, I shut my eyes and tried to replace them with ugly monsters i've come across in the past; quite a few beyers, shures, sennheisers and stuff. I actually went out to shops that stock these headphones including the ugly hd800, as working from memory wasn't enough. My conversion was confirmed. Definitely aesthetics matter to me.  
 
When I had people come round (quite a lot of them actually), literally everyone commented on how lovely them headphones look just floating off the bookself. It was like it was the first thing or only thing that they saw. Quite a few wanted to give them a listen too, which was nice, but i kept a close eye on how they treated my d7k's!!
 
So am i with you guys who are riled with the new denon's looks. Sort of but not fully no. You see, it's simple- pictures have never really done it for me. I've never found them capable of portraying the true look of headphones. I reckon that as it's a very very 3d object (unlike say this rubbish netbook i'm typing on or the external hard drive a few centimeters away) and so pictures, whilst being useful, are limited. Oh, the comparision of headphones with cars comes up a lot- mostly in stupid ways but here it's a good one i think. I'd always thought that the bugatti veyron wasn't actually that pretty- after seeing it in pictures and on tv even. One crept behind me the other day (not really. This thing don't creep. It was genuinely shaking the ground as it went past) and my god it looks awesome. On the other hand, pictures often make quite a lot of cars (cheap ones especially) appear a lot more attractive than they are. Don't need to give examples do I.

With headphones there's something similar going on. Even if we advance 100 years in visual technology, nothing could capture the sheer ugliness of the shure 940. I'm sure of it. These along with loads of beyers/sennheisers look, to me, a lot more finer in photos than how they do once in front of me. Put in beats into this category too as demonstrated by an image of these a few pages back. Their looks never reach anywhere near that level of beauty!!                                                                                                                                                                                                         On the other hand we have something like the ultrasone ed8. Before i got these i looked at photos and thought eeeww but that's the last way i'd describe their looks now.

Maybe a hi definition video of a hands on review would clear things up for me a little for these new denons and how they look. Still, I insist, I've got to see them in person to judge just how ugly or pretty my eyes see them to be.