Denon D2000 with and without Amp Comparison

[eucariote]

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TBH, before the 300 dollar range, you won't see an amp or DAC making a very significant change in sound. 300 is the average bar when you'll hear the greatest increase in sound, so I say go big or go home

I put a lot more than that into amping my Denons  And while good amplification tightened up their sound (helped control the bass, placed relatively less emphasis of the treble) I found that the mids were not fixed.  Neither did moving up the line to D7000.  In hindsight, I'd recommend just putting that kind of $ into a different headphone.  For example a HD600 and a good vintage stereo does far more to improve the sound for less than the price of most mid-range amps.
 

 

[drummerman]

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 IDK, I tried the Schiit asgard and Bifrost combo with a pair of Grados. And compared to my Fiio E9 & E7, I noticed a massive difference. Just in openness, imaging, resolution. Just my observations. I definitely can't say it's true or not, but most of the amp/DAC components I've tried in the mid-area of about 300-600 dollars have been noticeably better than my Fiio Amp.
 
 I do agree, it was a large statement to make and maybe I should have been more specific. It came across a little too matter-of-fact. Just observations.
 
 Sorry for any over-exaggerating

No problem Hifianddrumming
Whilst I am not saying measurements are the only important thing, they are the only objective way to explain something. Low distortion, wide-band amplification with low output impedance does not need to cost much. Most DAC's come with detailed and precise instructions on how to implement. It doesnt need to cost much either to make a good Converter but a lot of so called high end makers choose to deliberately mess around with a perfectly good product that has cost millions to develop, something they could never do themselves and in turn, make something perfectly good worse. Clever.
 
regards
 

 

[Saintly]

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Agree 100%.  Without the combo, my D2k has too much bass going on.  Having heard them with the E7/E9 the bass is tighter and under control.   I wouldn't won't them without the amp.  Doesn't help the recessed mids though.

 
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I put a lot more than that into amping my Denons  And while good amplification tightened up their sound (helped control the bass, placed relatively less emphasis of the treble) I found that the mids were not fixed.  Neither did moving up the line to D7000.  In hindsight, I'd recommend just putting that kind of $ into a different headphone.  For example a HD600 and a good vintage stereo does far more to improve the sound for less than the price of most mid-range amps.
 

So dac/amp doesn't help the recessed mids?  Damn... that was bothering me a lot since I listen to mostly music involving vocals.
 
Does anyone know how the DT 880/250 will stack up to the D2Ks through E7 alone and the E7/E9 combo?  Sorry that I'm asking again, but it seems like no one has any input on this matter.
 
Thanks again to everyone for their help.
 

 

[fallingreason]

I found that using a good DAC/Amp was very important for the D2000, as well as the quality of the source file.  FLAC and CD's were noticeably better than V0/320kbps MP3's on the D2000 as their drivers are able to reveal much more detail than you may be led to believe at first due to their "fun" sound signature.
 
I suggest either modding your earpads Lawton style or purchasing  J$ pads for the D2k to fix the recessed midrange.  Once I put on J$ pads there was a dramatic improvement in the frequency response and even their resolving ability.  To top it off, I decided to purchase a very good Dac/AMP for them, the NuForce HDP, and they have never sounded so competent.  I was very surprised to see that I could listen to them comfortably with the volume dial at 12:00.  These drivers have low impedance, but they are NOT sensitive and they will benefit from a good amp.  However, I should say I was also very pleased with the performace of the D2000 from the uDAC2/uDAC2-HP which is only $99!
 
Good luck with your D's.  Try working out the kinks with mods and the rest of your system before you ditch them for something else.  I think the Dx000 headphones are really something special.

 

[Graphicism]

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 IDK, I tried the Schiit asgard and Bifrost combo with a pair of Grados. And compared to my Fiio E9 & E7, I noticed a massive difference. Just in openness, imaging, resolution. Just my observations.

Yes the majority of Fiio owners believe the E7/E9 to be the end of the line with everything else being colored in comparison...

 

[Head Injury]

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Yes the majority of Fiio owners believe the E7/E9 to be the end of the line with everything else being colored in comparison...

Everything else basically is colored compared to the E7. It has inaudible or near inaudible levels of distortion and noise, a flat frequency response, and a low output impedance. The E9 can color the sound because of its output impedance.

 

[zibra]

dt880 have recessed mids as well. JMoney pads do improve overall balance of Denons. However if you listen mainly to vocals I find it fantastic at HD650/600 (first one even better) or SRH940

 

[Graphicism]

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Everything else basically is colored compared to the E7. It has inaudible or near inaudible levels of distortion and noise, a flat frequency response, and a low output impedance. The E9 can color the sound because of its output impedance.

I think the majority of well built amps have little to no noise, perhaps the Fiio looks better on paper but upon listening it's very a flat, enclosed sounding unit. Where does instrument separation, soundstage and resolution show up in the specs?

 

[Ham Sandwich]

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Why did you need more volume than the E7 can provide?
 

One reason for possibly needing more volume is if you try the EQ settings I like.  The EQ settings lower the overall volume by 6 dB so the amp needs to make up for that.  I'm not sure if the E7 would have enough gain to do that.
 
And just a general comment about digital EQing for anyone wanting to try it.  If you raise a frequency by 6 dB you need to compensate and lower the overall level in the EQ by 6 dB to compensate.  Otherwise you'll get digital clipping.  You'll notice in my EQ settings I have lowered the "global gain" in the EQ by 6 dB.  Nothing in the EQ goes above 0.  That's to avoid digital clipping.
 


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Agree 100%.  Without the combo, my D2k has too much bass going on.  Having heard them with the E7/E9 the bass is tighter and under control.   I wouldn't won't them without the amp.  Doesn't help the recessed mids though.

Sounds like the E7/E9 combo is doing some things right then for the Denon.  Better bass control and bass extension and things like that are signs that the amp is adequate for the Denons.  One thing to try to listen for is signs of dynamics compression by the amp, especially when playing bass heavy tracks.  Some amps will compress the dynamics as they start to run out of juice.  I consider that a form of clipping.  A side effect of that type of dynamics compression is that the soundstage (headstage) will tend to get constricted as well.  As a point of reference, trying the Denon direct from an iPod will cause the poor iPod amp to compress the dynamics from the get-go.  The Denon sound never has a chance to blossom.  The sound is constricted from the get-go.  So if you want to hear what a dynamically compressed Denon sounds like, just try it direct from an iPod.
 


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As for the amping of the D2000, that is... not good to hear.  Do you have any experience with the DT 880/250?
 

 
I've only tried various Beyers at demos and head-fi meets.  I'll just say I'm not a Beyer person.  I don't like the way they peak/boost the treble.  I don't even like the T1 because of that.  If you try a Beyer pay attention to the treble to make sure it is not going to get annoying to you.  Treble like that is one area where what is right is up to personal taste.
 
And another general comment about finding an amp for the Denons.  The Denons have a bit of a peaky and tizzy treble as well.  It's the sort of treble artifacts that annoy me.  So when I try amps with the Denon I listen to cymbals to see if they're overly peaky or overly emphasized.
 
Amps that are known to be on the smooth side or amps that don't have the utmost in resolution tend to be a better match for me with the Denons because those amps tend to smooth the treble for me.  As an example, I have a Schiit Asgard.  It drives the Denons very well and is technically a very good amp for the Denons.  Unfortunately it makes the Denon treble to tizzy and emphasized for me.  So the Asgard is a no-go for me with the Denons.  Hybrid amps (tube / solid state hybrid) are worth a try with the Denons.  They tend to smooth things out.  Some lower cost SS amps can also have a smoothish sound and work with the Denon, just need to find one that doesn't clip or compress the dynamics.  The native sound of the Denon is to want to be peaky or tizzy in the treble, so finding an amp for them is a search to find something that compromises in the right areas for them.
 
 
 

 

[Head Injury]

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One reason for possibly needing more volume is if you try the EQ settings I like.  The EQ settings lower the overall volume by 6 dB so the amp needs to make up for that.  I'm not sure if the E7 would have enough gain to do that.

The E7 would have plenty of volume for the D2000. The D2000 is one of the most efficient full-sized headphones I know of. It should be driven to over 120dB, which is more than enough even after a -6dB digital attenuation.
 
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I think the majority of well built amps have little to no noise, perhaps the Fiio looks better on paper but upon listening it's very a flat, enclosed sounding unit. Where does instrument separation, soundstage and resolution show up in the specs?

Frequency response, noise, and distortion may all affect those. I argue that amps and DACs don't really change any of them. They're mostly dependent on the transducers and recording. If you've got more than subjective impressions to go on, post it because I'd like to see it!

 

[Saintly]

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dt880 have recessed mids as well. JMoney pads do improve overall balance of Denons. However if you listen mainly to vocals I find it fantastic at HD650/600 (first one even better) or SRH940

I've heard some reports of recessed mids on the DT 880 but most seem to think it's a rather balanced pair of headphones.  I'll keep the pads in mind, but I'd feel better about spending my money towards headphones/amps to try get as close as possible to what I'm looking for before doing any modding and such.  The balance and smooth sound of the HD 650s really appeal to me but the supposedly "veiled" sound and not-so-good build quality scare me away.
 


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I've only tried various Beyers at demos and head-fi meets.  I'll just say I'm not a Beyer person.  I don't like the way they peak/boost the treble.  I don't even like the T1 because of that.  If you try a Beyer pay attention to the treble to make sure it is not going to get annoying to you.  Treble like that is one area where what is right is up to personal taste.
 
And another general comment about finding an amp for the Denons.  The Denons have a bit of a peaky and tizzy treble as well.  It's the sort of treble artifacts that annoy me.  So when I try amps with the Denon I listen to cymbals to see if they're overly peaky or overly emphasized.
 
Amps that are known to be on the smooth side or amps that don't have the utmost in resolution tend to be a better match for me with the Denons because those amps tend to smooth the treble for me.  As an example, I have a Schiit Asgard.  It drives the Denons very well and is technically a very good amp for the Denons.  Unfortunately it makes the Denon treble to tizzy and emphasized for me.  So the Asgard is a no-go for me with the Denons.  Hybrid amps (tube / solid state hybrid) are worth a try with the Denons.  They tend to smooth things out.  Some lower cost SS amps can also have a smoothish sound and work with the Denon, just need to find one that doesn't clip or compress the dynamics.  The native sound of the Denon is to want to be peaky or tizzy in the treble, so finding an amp for them is a search to find something that compromises in the right areas for them.
 
 
 

Thanks again for your insight.  I'm aware of the bright treble on the DT 880s and will definitely look out for that.  However, I listen to very little treble-heavy music so it shouldn't be a huge problem.  The occasional violin solo probably won't drive me insane even if the trebles do turn out a bit fatiguing to my ear.  
 
Above all else, I just want a balanced and versatile pair of heaphones that can go well with a wide range of musical genre.  I'm fine with a jack of all trade, but master of none.  I've heard people describe the HD 650s this way, but again, the subpar construction quality and somewhat "veiled" sound drives me away. 
 
 

 

[Graphicism]

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Frequency response, noise, and distortion may all affect those. I argue that amps and DACs don't really change any of them. They're mostly dependent on the transducers and recording. If you've got more than subjective impressions to go on, post it because I'd like to see it!

Unfortunately you're looking for numbers and we're talking about audio. For instance I'm sure you've seen tube amps recommended for soundstage and musical separation, you wouldn't shouldn't want to see words and numbers on a page but listen to it for yourself. I do agree with you in that it starts at the source and that being the quality of the recording being played, likewise a quality source like a DLIII (which I use), W4S DAC etc sounds considerably more natural than an E7. The Fiio products may have perfect specs, but when one sounds like it's coming through a plastic straw and the other considerably more open, what then of specs? I don't like to use such an ignorant analysis but would like to hear your thoughts as to why don't all the long-time head-fiers use Fiio products if their $1,000+ sources offer nothing extra?

 

[Head Injury]

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Unfortunately you're looking for numbers and we're talking about audio. For instance I'm sure you've seen tube amps recommended for soundstage and musical separation, you wouldn't shouldn't want to see words and numbers on a page but listen to it for yourself. I do agree with you in that it starts at the source and that being the quality of the recording being played, likewise a quality source like a DLIII (which I use), W4S DAC etc sounds considerably more natural than an E7. The Fiio products may have perfect specs, but when one sounds like it's coming through a plastic straw and the other considerably more open, what then of specs? I don't like to use such an ignorant analysis but would like to hear your thoughts as to why don't all the long-time head-fiers use Fiio products if their $1,000+ sources offer nothing extra?

I have seen tube amps recommended for soundstage and musical separation. I've also seen them recommended for neutrality and a clean signal, so who knows how much that means 

 
Fiio products don't have perfect specs, but they have good enough specs.
 
Unfortunately subjective impressions on the "naturalness" and "openness" of the sound don't mean much. Everything you hear is measurable, it just isn't always measured. You want to prove to me that multi-thousand dollar amps sound better than $100 amps when both sport inaudible levels of distortion, noise, rolloff, and have adequate power and slew rate, find a study that shows it with numbers and graphs.
 
You can't possibly think it's impossible to model the performance of an electrical amplifier, with all the decades of advanced physics under our belts.
 
As to your last question, I think it's a healthy combination of biases and hive-mind mentality.

 

[Graphicism]

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I have seen tube amps recommended for soundstage and musical separation. I've also seen them recommended for neutrality and a clean signal, so who knows how much that means 

 
Fiio products don't have perfect specs, but they have good enough specs.
 
Unfortunately subjective impressions on the "naturalness" and "openness" of the sound don't mean much. Everything you hear is measurable, it just isn't always measured. You want to prove to me that multi-thousand dollar amps sound better than $100 amps when both sport inaudible levels of distortion, noise, rolloff, and have adequate power and slew rate, find a study that shows it with numbers and graphs.
 
You can't possibly think it's impossible to model the performance of an electrical amplifier, with all the decades of advanced physics under our belts.
 
As to your last question, I think it's a healthy combination of biases and hive-mind mentality.

 

So we've got hive-mind mentality on one side and a stubborn disposition on the other.
 
When I was a child I would take a McDonalds Big Mac over a steak at LongHorn Steakhouse, today after many years of eating I prefer the steak at LongHorn. Do I have golden taste buds?
 
I wouldn't think it's impossible to create a number of electronic devices these days, but companies will get away with charging for the new simplest fad; HD800, T1, LCD-2... and people will pay it.
 
If you actually spent some time with these devices that you are quick to dismiss you would have a different approach to audio, whether you think it's audible or delusional that's something you will have to decide.
 

 

[Head Injury]

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So we've got hive-mind mentality on one side and a stubborn disposition on the other.
 
When I was a child I would take a McDonalds Big Mac over a steak at LongHorn Steakhouse, today after many years of eating I prefer the steak at LongHorn. Do I have golden taste buds?
 
I wouldn't think it's impossible to create a number of electronic devices these days, but companies will get away with charging for the new simplest fad; HD800, T1, LCD-2... and people will pay it.
 
If you actually spent some time with these devices that you are quick to dismiss you would have a different approach to audio, whether you think it's audible or delusional that's something you will have to decide.

 
Is it stubborn to ask for objective data, or is it stubborn to reject it?
 
Beef can objectively taste different. Amps aren't always objectively audibly different. Not with the data we have.
 
I'm not sure how mentioning transducers, which are objectively different, and mentioning how suckers will pay regardless, is helping your point.
 
I don't need to spend time with these devices. Others already have. And they've measured the performance. If you don't think the measured performance is indicative of real world performance, prove it. Don't just make weak analogies.
 
On the matter of "spend some time", I did spend time with the DAC1 and the Essence STX together. I only did a few sighted AB tests, and on the first switch thought I heard a wider soundstage on the DAC1. That disappeared when I switched back and listened for it specifically. If you'd like to mail me some more amps, I'll AB them, and even get someone to help me ABX them.