[trickyRoadsDummyTOOL]

I had a couple of hours spare in the early hours of this morning so decided to put the Focals and the Denon up against each other on a track I know well. There is something of a caveat here as I've only had the Focals for 17 days and I've not let them run for 24 hours. I like to hear how headphones develop with time. The track was from the Intervention's stereo SACD of Jennifer Warnes' Another Time, Another Place. For me this album is as good as a recording and production can get, it's virtually flawless. The track I chose was Tomorrow Night, track 2.

It's a very acoustic track with a double bass, Hammond Organ, drums and percussion. The track opens with the double bass. The Denon, on these opening bars of the track is very dynamic, digging deeper, although only slightly, than the Focals. Each string pluck is beautifully rendered and the decay is spot on, just overlaying the next pluck without merging into it and timbre is great on the Denon. The Focals, to be fair, are not far behind but are not as dynamic in the bass.

The vocals come in next but I'll discuss them later. The next instrument is I believe a snare drum with brushes. The Focals are able to bring out more detail and nuances with the audio being somewhere in the lower mids. The detail is there with the Denon but the Focals are able to produce those nuances and throw them out into the soundstage, this is something that I believe will get better as the Focals pile on the hours. The Hammond strikes up next and both headphones produce a very good timbre and detail, as the play goes more towards a treble range the Denons produce a little more dynamism.

The last to come into play is the hand struck percussion. This is interesting. The Focals are slightly more resolving when the drums are hand struck in the middle of the skin and erring towards mid bass. You can hear the 'texture' of the struck skin. As the player moves more towards the outer edges of the drums the Denon comes into it's own giving more punch. Timbre is good for both pair of headphones.

The vocals. The Focal is superb, everything just flows. Warnes' vocals are strong considering she was in her early 70s when cut this album. Rarely does she venture into the high end of her range. This can be said of most of the vocals I've listened to on the Focals, James Taylor, as an example, is perfection. However, the Denon has a trick up it's sleeve and is what drew me to them. The upper treble, there's certainly a push here by design. As good as the vocals are on the Focals it's not as exciting as the Denon. You can shut your eyes with the Focals on this album and enjoy what you hear, a very very good interpretation of a well recorded album with wonderful timbre. Shut your eyes with the Denon and that double bass the more exciting vocals it's as if the artist and musicians are in your living room.

What I also like about the Denon is the ability to bring the vocals a step forward. If the vocals are deep in the mix, then, because of my age, I'm in the same ball park as Jennifer Warnes, then sometimes those vocals get pushed too far back. The Denons are very good as resolving this in the soundstage. With soundstage in mind I find the Denons to be narrower but higher. Instruments are placed on different levels and are easily distinguishable, a much better soundstage than closed backs I've had in the past. The Focals are wider, but not by much. They do have the ability to throw out small details around that soundstage and I find them highly enjoyable.

Build quality of both is excellent, both are very tactile headphones. Comfort, for me is good, but I think people larger than me may be troubled by the Focals clamping force. I don't find any problems with the headband of either and have had no trouble listening for at least two hours in a session. We all know what's in the Denon's box and that is not much. The Focals come with a very good carry case and like the Denons don't have a spare pair of earpads, shocking at this price range from both manufacturers. Cables with the Focal is a balanced 3 metre and short open ended cable, would have preferred a 3 metre open and I currently have to either use the Denon's cable which fits the 3.5mm to the phones. Perhaps I get a third party 3 metre in the not too distant future.

I'm happy with both the Denon and the Focals but neither is very forgiving when it comes to those victims of the loudness wars. That treble push with the Denon works against it here and neither are comfortable listens when those ablums dynamics are squashed flatter than hammered s***, well you get my meaning. Those albums tend to get left for the more forgiving Oppos. If you were to twist my arm and ask which I would have kept if finances didn't allow me the luxury of owning both then I have to say it's the Denon. The treble push and the way it sets the vocals in the soundstage plus the fact that I will use closed backs more often than openbacks would have been the deciding factor as well as knowing I already have an excellent pair in the Oppo PM1s.

In the coming weeks the gap between the two may get narrower and I'm enjoying both and I don't think either will disappoint it may very well come down to whether or not it's open or closed you need. At the moment, typing this out, I'm listening on the Denons to Hans Zimmer's OST on CD of The Last Samuri. Damn, they're even excellent at this.

Thank you for this very detailed observation and comparison.
The denons are said to improve with copper cables and pads of the stax 009 according to @zolkis posted earlier in this thread.

 

[zolkis]

I said it so many times that do hear a peculiar sound signature with all Focals I tried (Utopia, Stellia, Celestee, Elegia, Radiance) that - for the lack of better word - sound like some unwelcome hardness in the sound. If you don't have that problem, that changes the evaluation.

The Denons sound softer (a trait of bio-cellulose drivers), brighter (a trait of the D9200 driver), but more musical to my ears, even though the Focal Utopia measured near textbook perfect, which the Denons can't even approach. Then how can I say then the Denons sound more musical? Yet that has been my repeated experience, for myself, and I don't consider it anything but a subjective argument.

The Focal ear pads are well designed and tuned, I didn't find much room for improvement there. Good job Focal.

The Denon D9200 have somewhat sub-optimal pads, and turned out to have rather huge reserves in the sound, depending on the ear pads.
They will continue to sound different than the Focals, you get the same kind of sound, but the sound stage, the bass depth and impact, the naturalness of the sound can be improved.
I did achieve that with modding Denon's own pads, modding the Stax 009 pads, and modding a few Chinese pads (both perforated leather and full leather, the latter matching far better).
The mod is so simple that it would be trivial to Denon to incorporate it, at (almost) no additional cost. Just reduce the mass of the internal foam by about 30%, making the foam insert slightly bigger in internal diameter, more shallow in the back, and slightly more shallow in the front.

 

[trickyRoadsDummyTOOL]

I said it so many times that do hear a peculiar sound signature with all Focals I tried (Utopia, Stellia, Celestee, Elegia, Radiance) that - for the lack of better word - sound like some unwelcome hardness in the sound. If you don't have that problem, that changes the evaluation.

The Denons sound softer (a trait of bio-cellulose drivers), brighter (a trait of the D9200 driver), but more musical to my ears, even though the Focal Utopia measured near textbook perfect, which the Denons can't even approach. Then how can I say then the Denons sound more musical? Yet that has been my repeated experience, for myself, and I don't consider it anything but a subjective argument.

The Focal ear pads are well designed and tuned, I didn't find much room for improvement there. Good job Focal.

The Denon D9200 have somewhat sub-optimal pads, and turned out to have rather huge reserves in the sound, depending on the ear pads.
They will continue to sound different than the Focals, you get the same kind of sound, but the sound stage, the bass depth and impact, the naturalness of the sound can be improved.
I did achieve that with modding Denon's own pads, modding the Stax 009 pads, and modding a few Chinese pads (both perforated leather and full leather, the latter matching far better).
The mod is so simple that it would be trivial to Denon to incorporate it, at (almost) no additional cost. Just reduce the mass of the internal foam by about 30%, making the foam insert slightly bigger in internal diameter, more shallow in the back, and slightly more shallow in the front.

Big thank you goes out to you not only because of comparing 9200s with other headphones very detailed and comprehensibly explained but also working on showing the potential 9200s have and how to make use of this potential with a bit DIY, not to forget that 9200s get even better with 7200s pure copper cables and vice-versa. I can only warmly recommend everyone taking x200s into account to read these posts carefully. Even reading the whole thread showed important entries of other members being valuable. Great thread, Great information. Thank you. This makes it a hobby, too.

 

[thelittletaffia]

I said it so many times that do hear a peculiar sound signature with all Focals I tried (Utopia, Stellia, Celestee, Elegia, Radiance) that - for the lack of better word - sound like some unwelcome hardness in the sound. If you don't have that problem, that changes the evaluation.

We are all different and different signatures with both headphones and speakers will delight and disappoint in equal measures. I'm going to get a new cable for the Focals which will also fit the Denons, but I'm in no rush.

I'm enjoying the differences between all of my headphones and some albums suit the Denon, others the Focals and some don't suit either and are better with the planars. New planars are likely to be my next addition with the Meze Empyrean, or if I can pull the wool over the wife's eyes the Elites. I'll more than likely ask to have the Focal Stellias auditioned as well. I may very well add to that list.

 

[zolkis]

not to forget that 9200s get even better with 7200s pure copper cables and vice-versa.

Right, I also liked the D9200 more with the D7200 cables. Mostly solved the treble issue and added more body to the sound.
IMHO neither the D9200 nor D7200 cables are very good, but they are holding their own. I'd estimate them in the top 20-30% of various cables I tried, up to the price of the headphones themselves.
The best sound (by far) I got was using one of the cheapest cables: double cotton covered single strand pure copper cables that were abut 0.4 - 0.45 mm thick per strand. The only problem is that it's a bit stiff to be commercially viable. Note that I have not tried silver cables with that same strand thickness. In comparison, even expensive exotic silver and copper and plated silver and copper cables sounded flat, boring, muffled and reduced in volume, to various degrees. I tried some variety of copper cables and it seems the soft pulled ones are the best, and the most "musical sounding" dielectric is impregnated cotton (not Teflon, not something else, though polyurethane foam was not half bad, either). I think we didn't even starts to scratch the surface of all materials, but there is more to them than just the insulation properties. My educated guess is that the micro-uniformity of the electromagnetic field is important, not only the macro properties like overall resistance, capacitance, inductance (end of mambo-jumbo).

 

[trickyRoadsDummyTOOL]

Right, I also liked the D9200 more with the D7200 cables. Mostly solved the treble issue and added more body to the sound.
IMHO neither the D9200 nor D7200 cables are very good, but they are holding their own. I'd estimate them in the top 20-30% of various cables I tried, up to the price of the headphones themselves.
The best sound (by far) I got was using one of the cheapest cables: double cotton covered single strand pure copper cables that were abut 0.4 - 0.45 mm thick per strand. The only problem is that it's a bit stiff to be commercially viable. Note that I have not tried silver cables with that same strand thickness. In comparison, even expensive exotic silver and copper and plated silver and copper cables sounded flat, boring, muffled and reduced in volume, to various degrees. I tried some variety of copper cables and it seems the soft pulled ones are the best, and the most "musical sounding" dielectric is impregnated cotton (not Teflon, not something else, though polyurethane foam was not half bad, either). I think we didn't even starts to scratch the surface of all materials, but there is more to them than just the insulation properties. My educated guess is that the micro-uniformity of the electromagnetic field is important, not only the macro properties like overall resistance, capacitance, inductance (end of mambo-jumbo).

So ordering 7200s, switching cables and sending back 7200s will not pay out.
I am no more so much of a DIY-guy, what I seriously regret. Anyway, a friend will help me modding STAX pads, having still to decide which ones I will take because 009s will not prevent my ears touching the drivers, I guess. So 007 will be more likely.
I will start off with cables, searching for stiff and cheap ones, cotton-mantled on Amazon, maybe alipress later, if two or three Amazon shots will miss.
Thanks again!

EDIT: Will definitely consult again your earpads DIY mods-Page.

 

[msing539]

Anyone interested in worn Denon pad rings? They don't hold well but maybe someone has completely broken rings or is willing to add bands to the clips.

 

[zolkis]

I will start off with cables, searching for stiff and cheap ones, cotton-mantled on Amazon, maybe alipress later, if two or three Amazon shots will miss.

I'd save you some money and time and admit there are no good cables available commercially on Amazon or AliExpress. They are all crap and mambo-jambo, I got tired of them. I can send you some. They are meant for replacing damaged cables in cheap headphones, not for critical listening.
I have some Toxic Cables Silver Widow in silk coating that I might sell at materials cost that sound pretty good.
For copper, I recommend the 0.5 mm cotton covered copper from wires.co.uk, 4 strands in total at the length you need it, plus the plugs, splitter and some shrink wraps. You can make it at home with a bit of practice. https://www.wires.co.uk/acatalog/cotton_covered_copper_wire-high-build.html

There are some other commercial cables that are recommended by many people, but at least to establish a reference, start with the cheap cables above. Further improvements are possible for sure (coating, impregnation, cryo treatments, using soft pulled copper etc). But they will give a run for the money even for the most expensive cables.
Edit: if you want commercial cables, this one looks good and fairly priced. https://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=81 (Forza Noir HPC Mk2, not the hybrid, but full copper). Though I wager the cheap cotton covered cables might actually sound better.

For ear pads, I recommend starting with these cheap ones (sheep skin version) from AliExpress, though they also require the same mods for best results (trim the internal foam by 30-40%).

Mounted directly with double sided adhesive patches.

 

[trickyRoadsDummyTOOL]

I'd save you some money and time and admit there are no good cables available commercially on Amazon or AliExpress. They are all crap and mambo-jambo, I got tired of them. I can send you some. They are meant for replacing damaged cables in cheap headphones, not for critical listening.
I have some Toxic Cables Silver Widow in silk coating that I might sell at materials cost that sound pretty good.
For copper, I recommend the 0.5 mm cotton covered copper from wires.co.uk, 4 strands in total at the length you need it, plus the plugs, splitter and some shrink wraps. You can make it at home with a bit of practice. https://www.wires.co.uk/acatalog/cotton_covered_copper_wire-high-build.html

There are some other commercial cables that are recommended by many people, but at least to establish a reference, start with the cheap cables above. Further improvements are possible for sure (coating, impregnation, cryo treatments, using soft pulled copper etc). But they will give a run for the money even for the most expensive cables.
Edit: if you want commercial cables, this one looks good and fairly priced. https://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=81 (Forza Noir HPC Mk2, not the hybrid, but full copper). Though I wager the cheap cotton covered cables might actually sound better.

For ear pads, I recommend starting with these cheap ones from AliExpress, though they also require the same mods for best results (trim the internal foam by 30-40%).
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000962488722.html (sheep skin)
or https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10000304691861.html (sheep skin).
Mounted directly with double sided adhesive patches.

Since Thursday I am a happy owner of the 9200s. about the sound quality enough has been written already, my words cannot add anything nor cope at all. Love it (SQ). My biggest concern were the size of my ears fitting the pad, but 193 tall and normally sized ears: no problem. Big step from 1990s (Beyers) I listen to for 7 years now, great leap from my last closed HP (tma-2), but that's expected.
Concerning cables I have to follow the magic triangle of robustness, SQ and price (35%-33%-32%). So forza noir MKii pure copper, but it's very likely in addition to that my local repair station for all audio and TV equipment will be ordered making a cable with good connectors and cheap copper from wires.co.uk.
Thanks @msing539 for offering the rings, I hope I don't need them too early.
I thought the journey was over, but I realistically fear that these headphones will let the weaknesses of my chain shine through.

 

[trickyRoadsDummyTOOL]

Short question to add: when the cables rubs over/on/at my clothes, they produce this sound in my drivers. Would the Forza noir MKii copper or self made cables suffer from that to a listenable/certain degree and if yes, in which way could I prevent this by choosing raw materials? Do I get my money back when I sent back specially made cables suffering from that?
EDIT: Post it in the cables thread?

 

[msing539]

Short question to add: when the cables rubs over/on/at my clothes, they produce this sound in my drivers. Would the Forza noir MKii copper or self made cables suffer from that to a listenable/certain degree and if yes, in which way could I prevent this by choosing raw materials? Do I get my money back when I sent back specially made cables suffering from that?
EDIT: Post it in the cables thread?

I'd ask the maker if their cables are microphonic.

 

[plakat]

Short question to add: when the cables rubs over/on/at my clothes, they produce this sound in my drivers. Would the Forza noir MKii copper or self made cables suffer from that to a listenable/certain degree and if yes, in which way could I prevent this by choosing raw materials? Do I get my money back when I sent back specially made cables suffering from that?
EDIT: Post it in the cables thread?

Many (all?) cables have this problem to some degree, I'd say sheeted cables are more prone to exhibiting this behavior that is often called microphonic (though I was wold that might not be the correct/precise word). Depends on the cable (obviously) but also the headphone and clothing involved... I'd not classify it as a defect though, so getting money back will involve goodwill by the shop. And custom made cables might be a hard sell trying to return them -- better clarify upfront before ordering.

Otherwise welcome to the club! The 9200 is my last remaining high-end headphone, and I really like it. Recently dug it out and listened through my Hugo (1. gen), splendid combination.

 

[zolkis]

Short question to add: when the cables rubs over/on/at my clothes, they produce this sound in my drivers. Would the Forza noir MKii copper or self made cables suffer from that to a listenable/certain degree and if yes, in which way could I prevent this by choosing raw materials? Do I get my money back when I sent back specially made cables suffering from that?

The Forza cables look reasonable for microphonics, a bit better than the original Denon cables. All cables are microphonic to some extent. Wrapping in soft sleeves will help, though will not completely cancel. Stax cables have very low microphony. I haven't tried them yet for other headphones, as they are a bit impractical and heavy, but I should.

 

[trickyRoadsDummyTOOL]

Many (all?) cables have this problem to some degree, I'd say sheeted cables are more prone to exhibiting this behavior that is often called microphonic (though I was wold that might not be the correct/precise word). Depends on the cable (obviously) but also the headphone and clothing involved... I'd not classify it as a defect though, so getting money back will involve goodwill by the shop. And custom made cables might be a hard sell trying to return them -- better clarify upfront before ordering.

Otherwise welcome to the club! The 9200 is my last remaining high-end headphone, and I really like it. Recently dug it out and listened through my Hugo (1. gen), splendid combination.

Thanks for the welcome. I don't have any regrets so far choosing this headphones, even if I would have preferred open ones, but there is -to the best of my knowledg- nothing to seriously compare in this price range, open or closed.
Before investing an added 320€ for the Forza NOIR MKii pure copper or letting build a DIY, I'll just try this one first: https://www.beyerdynamic.de/audioph...l.html?refSrc=3980&nosto=pdp_zuletztangesehen , it's for T1 (2./3.Gen), T5(3.Gen) amongst others.
Maybe someone else has some experience to share, if they fit at all etc. Just because they seem to be not far away km-wise. If I order, I'll let you know my findings. Funny thing: my local repair-multimedia-guy just said after my two sentences about why I want him to make this cable "Das nützt doch alles nix." Which I would translate to "isn't this all pretty useless, is it!?!!"
@zolkis: aliExpress-links returned me somewhat like "no item found".
Thanks to you all!
So far…

 

[msing539]

Before investing an added 320€ for the Forza NOIR MKii pure copper or letting build a DIY, I'll just try this one first: https://www.beyerdynamic.de/audioph...l.html?refSrc=3980&nosto=pdp_zuletztangesehen , it's for T1 (2./3.Gen), T5(3.Gen) amongst others.

The Denon cable is TS and this is TRS--I don't think it will work. I've tried the Denon cable in a Beyer T1 before I realized and it didn't work. I could be mistaken.