Dan Clark Audio Stealth Review, Interview, Measurements

[jlbrach]

all reviewers should be forced to review HP's without any measurements...give out the product to reviewers before the product goes to market without any measurements so reviewers will actually have to listen and render a judgment...measurements are a crutch other than perhaps power requirements so one knows what kind of amp is needed....I would love to see this amir guy forced to review products simply with his ears...he would still use price but would have to be more honest

 

[DarginMahkum]

all reviewers should be forced to review HP's without any measurements...

... otherwise they should be declared as terrorists that are trying to take away our freedom of listening to music, their equipment should be confiscated and handed over to those that hate measurements, their channels should be banned in the EU and the US, so the freedom of listening to music is not damaged by the measurements propaganda.

The 21. century zeitgeist on HeadFi.

 

[jlbrach]

... otherwise they should be declared as terrorists that are trying to take away our freedom of listening to music, their equipment should be confiscated and handed over to those that hate measurements, their channels should be banned in the EU and the US, so the freedom of listening to music is not damaged by the measurements propaganda.

The 21. century zeitgeist on HeadFi.

wow,what a silly reaction...I simply think using measurements as these people do is a crutch and it would be nice if the reviewers trusted their ears

 

[SolarCetacean]

It's not as simple as measurements or no measurements, but I agree that the reviewers should always listen first before measuring. Seeing a measurement is a source of bias itself. Humans (those with sight at least) prioritize visual input over auditory input, and what is a measurement if not visual input?

That's something that Dan Clark himself mentioned in an interview, I think with ConvinceMeAudio. When he's fine-tuning the sound of his headphones, he listens to the change before he measures the change because he doesn't want the measurement to tell him what he should hear. He listens for a change, then checks the measurement to see if it confirms what he hears. But if he measured first, then he will be biased on what he is supposed to hear, and that makes his job harder.

I think that Brent Butterworth did one of the best jobs at combining measurements and listening evaluation. His entire review (and recommendation) is based solely on his listening impressions, without seeing any measurements. After finishing his review, he will measure the headphone and provide additional comments and comparisons based on those measurements. And it's cool to see how the review and the measurements match or differ. Sometimes Brent will really enjoy a headphone, then say "it measures very strangely, try before you buy". Other times, he will enjoy a headphone, and it will also measure well. I think it's a shame he stopped working on headphone reviews.

 

[jlbrach]

It's not as simple as measurements or no measurements, but I agree that the reviewers should always listen first before measuring. Seeing a measurement is a source of bias itself. Humans (those with sight at least) prioritize visual input over auditory input, and what is a measurement if not visual input?

That's something that Dan Clark himself mentioned in an interview, I think with ConvinceMeAudio. When he's fine-tuning the sound of his headphones, he listens to the change before he measures the change because he doesn't want the measurement to tell him what he should hear. He listens for a change, then checks the measurement to see if it confirms what he hears. But if he measured first, then he will be biased on what he is supposed to hear, and that makes his job harder.

I think that Brent Butterworth did one of the best jobs at combining measurements and listening evaluation. His entire review (and recommendation) is based solely on his listening impressions, without seeing any measurements. After finishing his review, he will measure the headphone and provide additional comments and comparisons based on those measurements. And it's cool to see how the review and the measurements match or differ. Sometimes Brent will really enjoy a headphone, then say "it measures very strangely, try before you buy". Other times, he will enjoy a headphone, and it will also measure well. I think it's a shame he stopped working on headphone reviews.

spot on,I am not opposed to measurements but if like the ASR people you think measurements are the be all and end all you will obviously be biased in one direction or another when reading measurements before listening...reminds me of the arguments made there that a Topping amp or DAC is for sure better than any more expensive equipment because it measures well

 

[SLC1966]

all reviewers should be forced to review HP's without any measurements...give out the product to reviewers before the product goes to market without any measurements so reviewers will actually have to listen and render a judgment...measurements are a crutch other than perhaps power requirements so one knows what kind of amp is needed....I would love to see this amir guy forced to review products simply with his ears...he would still use price but would have to be more honest

I agree with not involving the bias a measurement could give and basing your take on your ears and what your mind is “feeling”. I have not to my recollection looked at measurements until my review was complete.

I also have enjoyed comparing the item I am reviewing to other HPs or IEMs I have on hand. That also gives the reader a reference point if they have heard that IEM or HP.

 

[SLC1966]

On that note, I rarely post anymore but I have been wanting to share how much I have been enjoying Stealth for the past year or so.

It is my late night “I do not want to wake up my wife” listening HP along with the ZMF AC.

The first minute or so that I have the Stealth on, nothing wows me. But then as the session goes on, I am blown away over and over again at the depth of sound coming from these. The layering, the texture, and the complexity of the notes are so beyond impressive. Well done DCA!

 

[DarginMahkum]

wow,what a silly reaction...I simply think using measurements as these people do is a crutch and it would be nice if the reviewers trusted their ears

Your post didn't deserve a better reaction. You and a few other just keep talking and talking about the measurements. Why? What is your problem? There are tons of reviews and impressions that focus on listening only tests and only a handful that delivers the measurements alongside the impression. All you have to do is, ignore the reviews and the posts that include the measurements and stop making such fanatical fantasies about forcing others to deliver reviews without measurements. Before or after, it doesn't matter. You have the choice and so let the others have one, too.

 

[SlothRock]

Oh man this E3 excites me. A $2k Dan Clark with AMTS that is super, super close to the Stealth based on reviews? Feels like a deal

 

[Currawong]

Your post didn't deserve a better reaction. You and a few other just keep talking and talking about the measurements. Why? What is your problem? There are tons of reviews and impressions that focus on listening only tests and only a handful that delivers the measurements alongside the impression. All you have to do is, ignore the reviews and the posts that include the measurements and stop making such fanatical fantasies about forcing others to deliver reviews without measurements. Before or after, it doesn't matter. You have the choice and so let the others have one, too.

That's a strawman, as that is not what he said at all.

The problem with Amir is, his biases are affected by what his measurements say, and consequently the positivity of his review. He has an entire forum that is supposedly based around "science", but approaches science and the meaning of it in a grossly misleading way. For example, he specifically states, when measuring the frequency response of a headphone, whether it "complies" with the Harman target curve. He treats the curve as being the only correct frequency response a headphone can have. Anyone who has actually read the research, will know that there was considerable variation in both peoples' preferences for the amount of bass, as well as the amount of treble, and that the curve itself is an average of those preferences.

The idea of the sciences is to better understand things, not a means to declare absolute truth, which is more akin to a religion. Amir treats the Harman curve as if it's an absolute truth that must be complied to, or the headphones are faulty, and should be EQ'ed to match the curve. However, what the Harman research has lead us to understand is, that, just as some people prefer the greater mid-bass of the Expanse, and other people prefer the tuning of the Stealth, there is a great variation in what people prefer when it comes to the tuning of headphones. A great deal of this probably relates to the music people listen to, as there is considerable variation in the balance of frequencies between different genres, albums, and even tracks in an album, but also the considerable variation in the frequency sensitivity of peoples' ears.

Scientific experiments are designed in such a way as to help us answer questions about a specific thing in a manner that reduces the possibility of other factors, including the cognitive and other biases of the person conductive them, so that the results can be useful. If a reviewer, having seen measurements of a product, lets himself believe he (or she) is hearing a certain thing because they saw something in a measurement, for the reason I just stated, they are doing the exact opposite of science!

 

[newworld666]

Though measurements are a small part of the characteristics of a headphone => as Harman response target, just reflect 70% of the listeners taste, basically, if you are among the 70%, I think, it's interesting to know and see if the headphone/iem you want to buy is concerning you or not ! I don't think any headphone IEM too far from harman target response can please me.
I imagine, that most people can't try any headphones before buying them in their life as they buy them via internet for more than a decade now... Maybe it's, for me, even a full none sense to try a headphone in a crowded public place (jam or shop).

Raw Measurements seems still like the easiest way to, at least, get this information and order one sample...
Probably, many advices from reviewers can also be a good way to help to choose a headphone. but, something like 70% of the reviewers which are positive on a headphone, that means probably that Harman target is not really far behind the concerned model.

For the 30% who don't like the harman response curve => good luck .. they are in a super niche of a niche market.. and probably some reviewers are also not concerned with harman target frequency response

In a way, I am glad that DCA decided to tune their Stealth to a Harman target, as I can from this target, adapt, with some EQ with (poweramp EQ), to my own taste, which can be with a bit less and clearer low frequencies => without any scientific or not measurements (just my own taste). I would say, I could buy a very good headphone, a bit too pricey, but the best I owned in 40 years with the HEDDPhone one.
So, I feel DarginMahkum has still an interesting point of view, though I don't consider ASR as a scientific website and I hate the binary "Yes or No" recommendation. I don't like too the standard "reviewers" measurements placed in the end of most articles as if it was the peak point and conclusion the article or the video !!!
I always start, like probably many, by reading the charts and then guess if it is worth to read or watch the whole review (sometime 30' or more).

ASR is maybe like for IEMs, with so many users (not scientist at all too), spending time to try to measure every IEM with unreliable mics... https://squig.link/ ..we get some basic info which should be offered to potential users in first place (like Chinese are doing for a while now with IEM and publish the chart directly on the box).
Ultrasone, in Germany, delivers each high-end headphone they sell, with their measurements of the exact headphone you got in the box !!! probably as a proof of their quality control.

 

[jlbrach]

That's a strawman, as that is not what he said at all.

The problem with Amir is, his biases are affected by what his measurements say, and consequently the positivity of his review. He has an entire forum that is supposedly based around "science", but approaches science and the meaning of it in a grossly misleading way. For example, he specifically states, when measuring the frequency response of a headphone, whether it "complies" with the Harman target curve. He treats the curve as being the only correct frequency response a headphone can have. Anyone who has actually read the research, will know that there was considerable variation in both peoples' preferences for the amount of bass, as well as the amount of treble, and that the curve itself is an average of those preferences.

The idea of the sciences is to better understand things, not a means to declare absolute truth, which is more akin to a religion. Amir treats the Harman curve as if it's an absolute truth that must be complied to, or the headphones are faulty, and should be EQ'ed to match the curve. However, what the Harman research has lead us to understand is, that, just as some people prefer the greater mid-bass of the Expanse, and other people prefer the tuning of the Stealth, there is a great variation in what people prefer when it comes to the tuning of headphones. A great deal of this probably relates to the music people listen to, as there is considerable variation in the balance of frequencies between different genres, albums, and even tracks in an album, but also the considerable variation in the frequency sensitivity of peoples' ears.

Scientific experiments are designed in such a way as to help us answer questions about a specific thing in a manner that reduces the possibility of other factors, including the cognitive and other biases of the person conductive them, so that the results can be useful. If a reviewer, having seen measurements of a product, lets himself believe he (or she) is hearing a certain thing because they saw something in a measurement, for the reason I just stated, they are doing the exact opposite of science!

spot on...I have no problem with measurements but have a huge problem when they are the be all and end all and there is only one set of measurements that make for a good HP...the abyss measures differently than the susvara or LCD-4 etc yet some like one and some like the others...

 

[Hiker816]

...the abyss measures differently than the susvara or LCD-4 etc yet some like one and some like the others...

And some like them all! How boring would it be if every headphone sounded the same? That's one thing I love about them--so easy to swap headphones and totally change the sound signature to fit my mood or the music. It would be a travesty if every HP matched the Harman curve exactly.

 

[newworld666]

And some like them all! How boring would it be if every headphone sounded the same? That's one thing I love about them--so easy to swap headphones and totally change the sound signature to fit my mood or the music. It would be a travesty if every HP matched the Harman curve exactly.

Harman curve is one point of the technical aspect only (speed, low frequencies clarity/details, distortion with busy music behaviour,... etc are not often represented at all in charts) ...
Maybe, it is easier and safety to adapt the sound with a poweramp EQ than to buy something totally out of a standard frequency response..

 

[plumpudding2]

spot on...I have no problem with measurements but have a huge problem when they are the be all and end all and there is only one set of measurements that make for a good HP...the abyss measures differently than the susvara or LCD-4 etc yet some like one and some like the others...

I consider both necessary, a review without measurements isn't a review it's just impressions. Still useful especially from someone whose ears you trust but not complete. Unfortunately the people that believe we can measure everything have blind faith in harman compliance and dac sinad values, while some who realize we cannot yet measure all relevant variables use that to reject measurements outright.
If you don't accept your ears are easily tricked by expectation bias and the like you're a prime target for snake oil salesmen.

I think Goldensound got as popular as he did in quite a short timeframe because he perfectly combines in-depth subjective evaluations with measurement data on a high technical level.