[Nostoi]

Power conditioning lol.

I know it's a legit thing, but... If the equipment connected to it is that sensitive to mains power, it's not designed very well is it?

Don't be so demanding - it's widely accepted that one of the sacrifices one has to make for a pure audio chain is mouldy food.

 

[801evan]

I will admit the Dave + susvara is unlistenable on usb input and straight to wall. But with a good chain to bnc/toslink and line conditioner, it's one of the best. So is the Dave to blame? If one follows the perpetuated narrative of 'oh if it needs a line conditioner then the device isn't designed well coz it shouldn't need one' + 'its just a bunch of 0's and 1's' then sure, blame the Dave, but that's on you and have nothing to do with the Dave. If you insist using USB input and straight to wall, then your conclusion will indeed be that the Dave can't drive any HP.

Just the contrast of users saying the Stealth has bass vs having no bass can't be directed at the Stealth right? Will one cry unit variation? Or the amp that's driving it,because smaller amps are able to deliver more bass than bigger ones? So the natural response to that is that the person doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[801evan]

which aspects of the signal path do you find troubling?

You will have to back read all my post activities for that one.

 

[Jimthecoffeeguy]

Don't be so demanding - it's widely accepted that one of the sacrifices one has to make for a pure audio chain is mouldy food.

I leave my fridge on, but then again the internal power system in the dac3 and hpa4 seem pretty solid. Also we have good power in Australia.

I will admit the Dave + susvara is unlistenable on usb input and straight to wall. But with a good chain to bnc/toslink and line conditioner, it's one of the best. So is the Dave to blame? If one follows the perpetuated narrative of 'oh if it needs a line conditioner then the device isn't designed well coz it shouldn't need one' + 'its just a bunch of 0's and 1's' then sure, blame the Dave, but that's on you and have nothing to do with the Dave. If you insist using USB input and straight to wall, then your conclusion will indeed be that the Dave can't drive any HP.

Just the contrast of users saying the Stealth has bass vs having no bass can't be directed at the Stealth right? Will one cry unit variation? Or the amp that's driving it,because smaller amps are able to deliver more bass than bigger ones? So the natural response to that is that the person doesn't know what he's talking about.

If gear is designed properly, then you shouldn't really need power conditioning (woth a few exceptions of course)
The fact that chord has USB issues is again, a design choice or flaw depending on perspective.

The. Again mabey I've no idea what I'm on about, and haven't got good enough ears to hear the difference. Who knows....

 

[801evan]

If gear is designed properly, then you shouldn't really need power conditioning

It's a futile and foolish perspective. And this goes back to all these TOTL HP comparisons by YT personalities where all the burden of SQ is on the HP. They have all disregarded transport quality and power quality. They are treating HPs, amps, and MQA included as silver bullets. There is no such thing. I will not deny that they will find the upgrade as an improvement but it's the wrong path. This is no different from a group of people who think they can EQ their way out of a bad chain and match TOTL performance. Sure EQing will help in improving the HP performance but it's foolish to think it's all that's needed.

 

[Ciggavelli]

Good to know my line conditioner and chain is ahead then vs the dc4 and istoek, as expected. You're still using the Dave usb inputs so that's part of the issue.

 

[Jimthecoffeeguy]

It's a futile and foolish perspective. And this goes back to all these TOTL HP comparisons by YT personalities where all the burden of SQ is on the HP. They have all disregarded transport quality and power quality. They are treating HPs, amps, and MQA included as silver bullets. There is no such thing. I will not deny that they will find the upgrade as an improvement but it's the wrong path. This is no different from a group of people who think they can EQ their way out of a bad chain and match TOTL performance. Sure EQing will help in improving the HP performance but it's foolish to think it's all that's needed.

Well, not gunna lie.... Marketing. Whatever sells units, right?

I'm not fussed on fancy stuff like mqa. I just get a good HQ FLAC file, play it on my PC, which then usb's it direct to my DAC, which then sends the output to my amp, through the stock cable direct to stealth and into my earholes/soul.

Please, however define "power quality" for me?

I'm of the opinion that most modern electrical devices, in this case high super high end premium items designed to work at the pinacle of audio reproduction, should be able to handle, process, modify and shield against conventional mains input voltage.

If the device can't do this and requires seperate "conditioning" it's either:

-a legacy product with old tech incapable of the processing required
-incredibly specialized gear designed with this in mind intentionally
-site specific supplied power problems (eg off grid generator only)
-intentional due to physical size limitations of the device.
-insert any valid reason you can think of here

Or.....
It's poorly designed. Either on purpose, or accident.

And if I'm putting down 5-10k or more on gear, I expect it to be bloody well designed and last a lifetime (or close to it).

 

[801evan]

Well, not gunna lie.... Marketing. Whatever sells units, right?

I'm not fussed on fancy stuff like mqa. I just get a good HQ FLAC file, play it on my PC, which then usb's it direct to my DAC, which then sends the output to my amp, through the stock cable direct to stealth and into my earholes/soul.

Please, however define "power quality" for me?

I'm of the opinion that most modern electrical devices, in this case high super high end premium items designed to work at the pinacle of audio reproduction, should be able to handle, process, modify and shield against conventional mains input voltage.

If the device can't do this and requires seperate "conditioning" it's either:

-a legacy product with old tech incapable of the processing required
-incredibly specialized gear designed with this in mind intentionally
-site specific supplied power problems (eg off grid generator only)
-intentional due to physical size limitations of the device.
-insert any valid reason you can think of here

Or.....
It's poorly designed. Either on purpose, or accident.

And if I'm putting down 5-10k or more on gear, I expect it to be bloody well designed and last a lifetime (or close to it).

The Dave psu is an smps. It has no noise rejection capabilities. The ifi power station , Audioquest power conditioners have noise rejection performance. That's getting your feet wet in having realistic expectations. Ifi alone has 3 psus types that fits one's expections and budget.

 

[Widell]

The Dave psu is an smps. It has no noise rejection capabilities. The ifi power station , Audioquest power conditioners have noise rejection performance. That's getting your feet wet in having realistic expectations. Ifi alone has 3 psus types that fits one's expections and budget.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy

 

[801evan]

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy

Yes that's still related to what I'm talking about. The noisy aspect they talk about is the internally generated noise they make. I'm talking about that and also talking about noise rejection from ac mains.

 

[Jimthecoffeeguy]

The Dave psu is an smps. It has no noise rejection capabilities. The ifi power station , Audioquest power conditioners have noise rejection performance. That's getting your feet wet in having realistic expectations. Ifi alone has 3 psus types that fits one's expections and budget.

So.... ... ... It was poorly designed, or designed intentionally this way. How much is a DAVE worth, again?

Just because other products eg the ifi are made to fix another products flaws, dosent justify the initial flaw in my book sorry.

Mabey if it was a cheap topping or something sure, but high end? Not really acceptable. And if you think it is, then you may be part of the reason why manufacturers think they can get away with it.

 

[Jimthecoffeeguy]

Yes that's still related to what I'm talking about. The noisy aspect they talk about is the internally generated noise they make. I'm talking about that and also talking about noise rejection from ac mains.

Do.... Do you know how psu's work?
Are you an electronics tech by chance?

Because I was previously. And honestly, I'm giggling at this point.

Also as ironic as it is, I'm having a power cut at home now (first in two years) What are the odds.....

 

[801evan]

So.... ... ... It was poorly designed, or designed intentionally this way. How much is a DAVE worth, again?

Just because other products eg the ifi are made to fix another products flaws, dosent justify the initial flaw in my book sorry.

Mabey if it was a cheap topping or something sure, but high end? Not really acceptable. And if you think it is, then you may be part of the reason why manufacturers think they can get away with it.

Well then it's a perspective of trust isn't it?

One guy trusts the 10k usd chord Dac is a silver bullet and should be immune to input and power quality. Oh it doesn't drive the susvara? Then throw in a 5k usd HP amp and it'll do the trick despite the Dave having a HP power output that's able to drive the Susvara. Let's rely on gobbles of 2nd harmonics distortion to color the sound and make it sound better.

Another guy trusts the Chord Dac has enough power to drive the Susvara. Tried it out and it doesn't sound great. He then takes the time improving the chain that led to having a src dx/ topping d10s to do a usb to spdif to the the Dave. He then recognizes the Dave, like any other device really, can benefit from power conditioning, then plugs the Dave into the conditioner and tadah, the Susvara sounds great on the HP out.

 

[Ciggavelli]

One can post all the promotional pages and info they want. Until you actually hear what these devices sound like compared to stock, you are just making assumptions. Assumptions are not equal to firsthand experience…

 

[Jimthecoffeeguy]

Well then it's a perspective of trust isn't it?

One guy trusts the 10k usd chord Dac is a silver bullet and should be immune to input and power quality. Oh it doesn't drive the susvara? Then throw in a 5k usd HP amp and it'll do the trick despite the Dave having a HP power output that's able to drive the Susvara. Let's rely on gobbles of 2nd harmonics distortion to color the sound and make it sound better.

To clarify, you just said: Dave dosent drive susvara, add external amp and it drives susvara with colour, but Dave has the power to drive susvara.

I love a good contradiction

Another guy trusts the Chord Dac has enough power to drive the Susvara. Tried it out and it doesn't sound great. He then takes the time improving the chain that led to having a src dx/ topping d10s to do a usb to spdif to the the Dave. He then recognizes the Dave, like any other device really, can benefit from power conditioning, then plugs the Dave into the conditioner and tadah, the Susvara sounds great on the HP out.

Hey, I'm not saying it's easy for us. There's a lot of factors. And we really can only trust our own ears, the data we see and mabey some other people's experiences at the end of the day.

But accepting products with potentially huge flaws as you outlined above and having to specifically work around them? That's a pretty big pill to swallow in 2022. You'd really have love the fancy case and pretty lights that that fpga comes in to justify it imo.

My benchmark gear might not look as fancy, and mabey to some it dosent sound quite "as good" even.
But end of the day - dollar for dollar, design and spec, functions and sound quality compared to other products?
I'd buy them again without any hesitation.
Sadly this Convo only cements my decision. I'm glad I didn't go the chord route, I think I'd have been quite... underwhelmed we will say. from a techs perspective and a consumers.



All that aside, I just want all manufacturers to step up. Do their best and push gear forwards, not stagnate.