[Hifivoice]

Maybe because transducer (being headphones or speakers) are still the most important part of our sound "chain".
And uber expensive DACs/amps/streamers/cables are not necessarily needed (not that personally I have something against paying through the nose for something that is really outstanding technically/design/material/look wise. I don't mind expensive stuff, but also I'm against saying that without spending small fortune you cannot have top hi-fi sound)

Totally agree to your last statement; for good sound you don't have to spend a fortune. It depends on your priorities and preferences what one considers top hi-fi sound. I'm mainly a classical music listener, and visit a lot of concerts. I'm super sensitive to a neutral sound balance, especially in the fundament area, as this is where most of the energetic "push" is from players (strings, piano), but with added articulation and texture in the mid-highs, because that's what a lot of players use to "tell their story" when they interpret a piece (e.g. pressing the stick a bit harder on the snare of the violin). Unfortunately, in my opinion a lot of electronics mask those properties too much, so that's why I think spending more than 1k€ on an amp/DAC makes sense. E.g. the 1k€ iFi Diablo that I for instance recently tried was lacking so much of this live presence (muddy mid, woolly bass, pressing treble, no outlining of instruments, narrow image) that it didn't reveal the qualities of my 4k€ Expanse to me.

So I personally think that 7,5k€ or 3,6k€ Enleum amps are not bringing enough value *for me* on the table. But I can hear it is a better amp. So it does have some value, and therefore I wouldn't call it generally "overpriced" just because it is expensive.

I would not even spend €50 on the HEDD that I heard last weekend, and in my opinion a €799 Meze Audio 109 Pro sounds better to me (in aspects that are more important to me) than the HIFIMAN Susvara that costs almost 10x more. I have full respect for people that buy and enjoy their Susvara or HEDD, for them it is not an overpriced headphone, and probably for very good reasons.

Anecdote: I've organised a decade ago a blind wine tasting, where I put some (good and preselected) supermarket red wines of 4-5 euros on the table. As a last bottle, I put an 80 euro/bottle Bordeaux wine. Everybody agreed the 80 euro bottle was a bit better. After revealing the wines, everybody concluded that to them the price difference was too much, but it was the best and most complex wine. It also doesn't mean that every 80 euro bottle of wine is a waste of money.

 

[number1sixerfan]

The amp would be the next most significant influence to thr expanse sound. Expanse is just picky that it does need both current and voltage to make it sound that’s worth its price tag. For me, Tubes provide the voltage part of the equation while output transformers provide the current and impedance matching for Expanse. You can also try a cheap class D speaker amp with a cheap class A tube buffer preamp for less than 500 dollars and achieve something very close to a multi kilobuck headphone amp but you won’t have the subtle refinements in the resolution that something like the Bliss or the Enelum can provide

Yea generally speaking, I agree with the premise of "spend the most on transducers", without question, for me it makes a ton more of a difference than anything else. The small caveat here is when talking about headphones that are harder to drive, like the Expanse, Susvara, etc. Then quality amplification, particularly in an amp that can provide enough continuous quality current to allow them to perform at their absolute best, is very important. But you also don't have to spend $6k to get there either, imo.

At least to my ears however, the Expanse performs quite a bit better with lesser amplification grunt and quality than say the Susvara does. I.e. in a shootout with my previously owned GSX Mini and a few speaker amps, there was a much bigger jump in performance w/the Susvara than the Expanse or any of my other headphones. A win for the Expanse imo, as it seems to be more consistent regardless of amp. So while I can sense some smaller degrees of improvement with my speaker amps, I simply don't use them as it's not worth the hassle/inconvenience. I would not be able to say the same for the Susvara.

 

[lafeuill]

... DCA Aeon 2 Noire (zizzy treble; definitely needs EQ) ...

If I may offer another perspective: it definitely needs the tuning pads included in the package (filters to be placed in front of the driver), Dan just leaves it to the customer to select the ones that fit his or her preferences.

These filters only impact the FR from 4kHz up to 20kHz:

Some enjoy the Noire without any of these pads, I guess they listen at low volumes or are insensitive to harshness in the upper registers.

I replicated Dan's own configuration: a combination of two pads, the one-notch white on top of the one-notch black (which corresponds to the blue line on the graph).

This level of filtering is perfect for listening to the Noire at quite high volume. I'm driving mine on a Flux Lab FA-10 Limited Edition at high gain and pot at 12:30, to give an idea.

Here are Dan's posts explaining things:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-audio-aeon-2-noire-review.46055/post-1643036
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-audio-aeon-2-noire-review.46055/post-1643697

A2N are great headphones, once you find the configuration that suits you.

Sorry for derailing the Expanse thread a bit, but thought it useful.

Here's what I'm listening right now to illustrate :

Grisman's mandolin is perfectly pitched, ultra vivid and non-distorted. A thing of beauty.

 

[lafeuill]

I'm adding that I would very much love to have an Expanse of my own.

And a Stealth.

I clearly remember when a friend made me listen to the first Ether (Open) years after its release.

I then became really interested in Dan's work. Had a Stealth on loan from my dear Pierre (headonist.fr) for a few weeks, it delighted me, with my iFi Pro ensemble.

Then a hush-hush Parisian gathering where I was treated to the Expanse on select sources and amplifiers.

Tipping my hat to Dan & crew.

Another marvel of liveliness, this track and all of the album. Magical moment.

PS. never miss the chance to enjoy @davidmolliere 's Stealth whenever I visit him.

 

[Hifivoice]

If I may offer another perspective: it definitely needs the tuning pads included in the package (filters to be placed in front of the driver), Dan just leaves it to the customer to select the ones that fit his or her preferences.

When you compare the frequency response of the Expanse (red) and Aeon (green) measured by Oratory, it is easy to explain the different timbres and the way the Acoustic Metamaterial Tuning System seems to flatten the response for the Expanse. You can hear some effect of the AMTS, by listening at the driver of the Expanse on both sides of the cup; it is quite some brighter on the outside direction of the cup.

I see Dan already posted EQ settings to straighten things out for the Aeon in the post you refer to.

 

[lafeuill]

I see Dan already posted EQ settings to straighten things out for the Aeon in the post you refer to.

Indeed. I was waiting to confirm my choice of tuning pad combination before trying his pmEQ settings. The most noticeable change is the 110Hz attenuation, it does indeed the Noire a more reference low end, useful for me when the double-bass has too much bloom on certain recordings. The ironing of the upper registers is fine tuning.

I find both technologies - AMTS & tuning pads - very well executed. Ability to adapt the HP to one's tastes for the "accessible" model and masterful precision in the correction of standing waves but fixed signature on the flagship models.

Factor in the high level of comfort and elegant designs, and you get a worthy investment in music listening appreciation.

An adequate amplification is the only requisite, provided you like DCA's approach to sound.

I'll be bringing my FA-10 LE to @davidmolliere 's ASAP to try his Stealth on it, that's for sure

 

[Nomax]

Wise choice!
Welcome to the Club of happy Expanse owners

The main reason for me personally here is in the room representation, Dan is one of the few who have recognized that headphones should not be constructed too open, because that has the consequence that space as well as separation of the voices as well as separation in the openness would be lost
(Tonally, however, I am not completely satisfied with Expanse, expressed as a percentage, 80 out of a possible 100,Stealth 90%)

NOMAX

PS.lol

 

[ThanatosVI]

The main reason for me personally here is in the room representation, Dan is one of the few who have recognized that headphones should not be constructed too open, because that has the consequence that space as well as separation of the voices as well as separation in the openness would be lost

NOMAX

PS.lol

Dan certainly knows a lot about headphone design.

Always looking forward to new releases, the last 3 have been total winners in my book

 

[adrianm]

Since there are a bunch of you that own both...Considering adding either the Utopia 2022 or the Expanse to my "collection" in addition to Stealth and Ca-1a. I already got rid of the Elites, Dk8k Pro Le, would not add LCD-5, Susvara, or Abyss...I wasn't even impressed with HE1, so X9000 in the future also doesn't make sense for me.
TLDR everything kind of sounds like crap after Stealth. One one hand, I might be in the camp that prefers Stealth to Expanse, but I would like some more air and slam when I don't have to use closed backs. On the other hand, Utopia might give me more slam, but i'm not sure they would be as enjoyable coming from Stealth. That midrange is to die for, and bass seems spot on for me. Everything else also sounds muffled in comparison and just..muddy.
Source chain and power considerations are not an issue, when I travel with the Stealth, I take the HM1 and Mojo with me. Still a disappointment compared to the full stack, but such is life.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Since there are a bunch of you that own both...Considering adding either the Utopia 2022 or the Expanse to my "collection" in addition to Stealth and Ca-1a. I already got rid of the Elites, Dk8k Pro Le, would not add LCD-5, Susvara, or Abyss...I wasn't even impressed with HE1, so X9000 in the future also doesn't make sense for me.
TLDR everything kind of sounds like crap after Stealth. One one hand, I might be in the camp that prefers Stealth to Expanse, but I would like some more air and slam when I don't have to use closed backs. On the other hand, Utopia might give me more slam, but i'm not sure they would be as enjoyable coming from Stealth. That midrange is to die for, and bass seems spot on for me. Everything else also sounds muffled in comparison and just..muddy.
Source chain and power considerations are not an issue, when I travel with the Stealth, I take the HM1 and Mojo with me. Still a disappointment compared to the full stack, but such is life.

If you already have the Stealth, I think that's one reason to look into the other direction. But take my opinion there with a grain of salt, as I've only heard the Stealth once. But it shared a lot of general qualities and sounded like a closed variant as expected to my ears. I would absolutely defer to others there.

As far as the Utopia 2022, coming from the Expanse it will definitely sound a bit muffled or less clear, and I do also think that's possible from the Stealth from what I heard. But it will definitely be a differently flavor with its more warm leaning (while not being that warm) sound. It's also a step up bass impact wise.. that said, it is very closed in soundstage wise and for me lacks the resolution wow factor that the Expanse has. But from my perspective, probably the better companion here.

 

[gammi]

What taps do you use on the 800i
And could you provide a photo

Sorry, I was away from home for a while and missed a lot of replies. I use the 16 ohm taps. A photo of what, the R800i? It looks like this:

thanks for sharing. I have a HA Spring --> Bliss > Expanse.
Wondering how much of a tube experience you got with the Freya+

It mainly added harmonics, everything gets that "richness". It's not a huge difference but one of those things where you notice yourself grooving/toe tapping to the music more after a while with the tube-pre vs without it.

Since there are a bunch of you that own both...Considering adding either the Utopia 2022 or the Expanse to my "collection" in addition to Stealth and Ca-1a. I already got rid of the Elites, Dk8k Pro Le, would not add LCD-5, Susvara, or Abyss...I wasn't even impressed with HE1, so X9000 in the future also doesn't make sense for me.
TLDR everything kind of sounds like crap after Stealth. One one hand, I might be in the camp that prefers Stealth to Expanse, but I would like some more air and slam when I don't have to use closed backs. On the other hand, Utopia might give me more slam, but i'm not sure they would be as enjoyable coming from Stealth. That midrange is to die for, and bass seems spot on for me. Everything else also sounds muffled in comparison and just..muddy.
Source chain and power considerations are not an issue, when I travel with the Stealth, I take the HM1 and Mojo with me. Still a disappointment compared to the full stack, but such is life.

Are you able to try your Stealth on a speaker amp? I've never really been able to get the full slam out of my Expanse until I hooked it up to high current speaker amps. Even my Holo Bliss which is quite powerful still comes up a touch short vs my 48W and 100W amps. I assume Stealth would be similar.

Personally I hardly listen to my Utopia anymore ever since I got the Expanse. Perhaps a controversial opinion but even in bass slam, I don't think the Utopia wins against the Expanse unless you hook up the Utopia to an amp with high output impedance that causes bass to be increased. The Expanse has some of the most slam of all my headphones (when on high current speaker amps). Can see why people think it lacks slam on most headphone amps though.

 

[adrianm]

Are you able to try your Stealth on a speaker amp? I've never really been able to get the full slam out of my Expanse until I hooked it up to high current speaker amps. Even my Holo Bliss which is quite powerful still comes up a touch short vs my 48W and 100W amps. I assume Stealth would be similar.

Personally I hardly listen to my Utopia anymore ever since I got the Expanse. Perhaps a controversial opinion but even in bass slam, I don't think the Utopia wins against the Expanse unless you hook up the Utopia to an amp with high output impedance that causes bass to be increased. The Expanse has some of the most slam of all my headphones (when on high current speaker amps). Can see why people think it lacks slam on most headphone amps though.

I've since placed an order for the Expanse. There's really no going back for me to non-AMTS headphones. No intention to get a speaker amp (or speakers), sticking with the HM1. I also find Stealth to have more slam than Susvara for example. What it kind of lacks is the feel that the D8k Pro Le had for example, those were crazy tactile, like they were actually moving air.
Hope the Expanse is a bit more dynamic than Stealth, but i'm mostly getting it out of curiosity at this point, since i've exhausted all other headphones. Right now, the Stealth is the best thing i've ever heard, by quite some margin. The HM1 took it to new levels compared to the Oor.

 

[ThanatosVI]

I've since placed an order for the Expanse. There's really no going back for me to non-AMTS headphones. No intention to get a speaker amp (or speakers), sticking with the HM1. I also find Stealth to have more slam than Susvara for example. What it kind of lacks is the feel that the D8k Pro Le had for example, those were crazy tactile, like they were actually moving air.
Hope the Expanse is a bit more dynamic than Stealth, but i'm mostly getting it out of curiosity at this point, since i've exhausted all other headphones. Right now, the Stealth is the best thing i've ever heard, by quite some margin. The HM1 took it to new levels compared to the Oor.

The new DCA releases are quite something.
If Dan manages to replicate the Expanse sound with some more expansive soundstage (like Corina) it would be close to perfect. Imo

 

[alxw0w]

There's really no going back for me to non-AMTS headphones.

Ah yes, there is something special about AMTS smooth/clear delivery.
Stealth/Expanse gives me similar experience to that from IEMs. Lack of peaks and resonances in high frequencies.

Surprisingly Expanse to me ears is not as crystal clear sounding like Stealth. I'm not sure why, could be tuning difference but I suspect that something else is going on.

 

[plumpudding2]

Ah yes, there is something special about AMTS smooth/clear delivery.
Stealth/Expanse gives me similar experience to that from IEMs. Lack of peaks and resonances in high frequencies.

Surprisingly Expanse to me ears is not as crystal clear sounding like Stealth. I'm not sure why, could be tuning difference but I suspect that something else is going on.

Haven't heard the Expanse yet but I feel like this interview with mixing engineer Christoph Stickel has a nice description of the differences: