[esldude]

There's nothing scientific about shouting "bias" at everyone in this forum. I'm going to continue to discuss what I'm hearing, and I hope you'll be able to come up with real reasons to explain those differences. So I'm asking you to stop shouting "bias." We're all fully aware of the notion and you're not enlightening anyone.

As said, you already have the explanation.  That you won't accept it is your problem.  You ask for an explanation, then dismiss it.  Discussing what you are hearing is fine.  What you are hearing isn't some huge mystery however. 

 

[cjl]

There's nothing scientific about shouting "bias" at everyone in this forum. I'm going to continue to discuss what I'm hearing, and I hope you'll be able to come up with real reasons to explain those differences. So I'm asking you to stop shouting "bias." We're all fully aware of the notion and you're not enlightening anyone.

If you're so confident you can hear the differences, I assume you've done a double-blinded, level matched test?

 

[bigshot]

There's nothing scientific about shouting "bias" at everyone in this forum

 
Everyone is subject to expectation bias, myself included.

 

[Currawong]

Seriously, the only people who can answer this question properly are those that are both qualified and well-experienced in the manufacture of audio equipment.  Unless one of those people (likely from a manufacturer) is willing to explain, I don't think this thread is going to be very useful to anyone.

 

[castleofargh]

well I would love to hear from people who had 2 daps of the same model and could try 2 different firmwares
because after almost any firmware update of any dap you find someone talking about changes in sound.
 
every time I owned a dap and did an update I heard no significant change. and every time something major seemed to happen with the firmware, I had already sold that dap. so I'm kind of curious about how much is placebo and how much is real?(or if I just don't have any luck with firmware updates ^_^)
 
 
 
else I think I already mentioned it, but I have a few daps and the clip+/zip and my samsung YP-P3 are sounding kind of flat and really similar. the sonys and cowon, my poor tablet, and even my computer all have noticeable changes and not just in signature or hissing levels. usually I really notice a difference in the imaging, probably just a mix of signature and some high crosstalk levels are enough for those differences. I really can't tell.
but I turned my mother into an experimented switch pusher once, and even with no DSP activated, it was easy to tell what was what(except for clip+ and p3, but the clip+ doing its buffering noise it was still easy to tell ^_^).
 
anyway with the amps, I have 4sources that sound very much identical on easy to drive IEMs, so that does happen more than we know.
and again I can't tell if it's luck or not, but they are the 4 with the lowest impedance outputs. the sonys and cowon have 3ohm or more. if I had to guess I would say from the signature change with my IEMs that it's above 30ohm(I only have 30 and 100ohm resistors so that all the precision I can give ^_^). the tablet I didn't even try to know, when you press play you commit a crime against music.

 

[bigshot]

I've had iPod Generation 2, 3 and classic. iPhone 1, 3 and 5, iPad 1 & 2, Mac 8500AV, Mirror Door G5 (2 of them), the last top of the line liquid cooled powermac tower (2 of them), iMac 17 inch (three of them), iMac 27 inch, and Mac Mini... and I checked every one of them and they were all audibly identical... flat as a proverbial pancake. Transparent. Clean. Perfect sound.

 

[bigshot]

  well I would love to hear from people who had 2 daps of the same model and could try 2 different firmwares
because after almost any firmware update of any dap you find someone talking about changes in sound.

 
If a firmware update changed the sound of a player, I would be very suspicious that they were trying to correct for some sort of hardware problem with the amplifying circuitry by paving over it with a software kludge. In theory, the DAC should be what determines what a player sounds like, not the software. A player should take whatever the DAC puts out and just amplify it for the headphones. Software updates should be only for user interface and features. It shouldn't affect the way the player decodes the digital stream. That's the DAC's job.

 

[Currawong]

Bigshot: Maybe there was an error in the decoding software they fixed? Maybe they fixed issues in the underlying Android software (if that is being used) that was interfering with the sound output? Maybe it is best to ask the people who wrote the software than speculate?

 

[bigshot]

Software doesn't decode. That is all hard wired into the DAC chip. I doubt it's possible to update a DAC with a software update for a player. The Android software covers the user interface, not the way the DAC chip inside translates digital audio into analogue audio.

 

[Claritas]

If you're so confident you can hear the differences, I assume you've done a double-blinded, level matched test?

I did sighted tests. (bigshot probably did the same with his Apple gear.) I'm pretty sure anyone can distinguish between iPod 5 and Clip+, even blind-folded and underwater, even bigshot.

cjl, you say everything sounds the same. What comparisons have you done?

Ever DBT test drive a car? They hate that at the lot.

 

[TrollDragon]

Yea because DAC chips don't have any registers or require any configuration. You just solder them to a board and music flows out, I don't see how a firmware change could alter a DAC's functionality... :rolleyes:

 

[bigshot]

I did sighted tests. (bigshot probably did the same with his Apple gear.) I'm pretty sure anyone can distinguish between iPod 5 and Clip+

 
I don't know what a clip is. I have checked every one of my Apple devices in a direct A/B line level matched comparison against the CD in my home system, and I can't discern a difference at all. That is all I need. I imagine there are crappy DAPs out there. I have no idea why anyone would buy them when transparent DACs cost about the same.
 
If I bought something that altered the sound, I'd return it.

 

[SilverEars]

Yea because DAC chips don't have any registers or require any configuration. You just solder them to a board and music flows out, I don't see how a firmware change could alter a DAC's functionality...

I believe Wolfson WM8741 is capable of software mode where you can change the digital filters.

 

[bigshot]

How would you go about doing that when the dac is just wired in with audio ins and outs and power? There's no control wiring on DACs.

 

[TrollDragon]

  I believe Wolfson WM8741 is capable of software mode where you can change the digital filters.

Precisely!