[Claritas]

[1] Why do people insist on using IEMs that the DAPs weren't designed to be used for, and then blame the DAP for having bad sound? If you want to use IEMs just patch into the line out and plug in an amp designed to work with the IEMs.

[2] The "sound" of a DAP is what comes out of the line out. The impedance is a function of the earphones.

[1] Aren't most DAPs intended to be used with IEMs?

[2] Insisting that this is the case doesn't account for what I and others hear.

 

[bigshot]

No, DAPs are not designed to work with low impedance IEMs. They are designed to work with high impedance small portable headphones. They figure if you are going to plug something in that requires amping, you'll have an amp.

 

[castleofargh]

 

  The "sound" of a DAP is what comes out of the line out.

 
This point seems to be frequently missed with regards to DAPs and full sized DACs in general.
 
Cheers

most people don't know anything about line out or impedance or why something is said to be bad with something else. some reading your post might plug an IEM into the LO to see if it sounds better (and I'm sure some will stick to it afterward).
I wish I knew 1/50th of what I know now(that in itself still doesn't amount to much) the first time I decided to buy something I saw on headfi.

 

[bigshot]

It helps to figure out how things work. Then you know what to expect. I always try to puzzle those things out when I shop. Reviews that are clear and explain and outline the options are the most helpful.
 
But obviously a DAP isn't necessarily "colored" if it changes depending on what headphones you plug into it. Clearly the headphones are what are changing, not the DAP. That just makes sense.

 

[cjl]

  No, DAPs are not designed to work with low impedance IEMs. They are designed to work with high impedance small portable headphones. They figure if you are going to plug something in that requires amping, you'll have an amp.

The great majority of small portable headphones are low impedance. If a DAP can't play low impedance (but high sensitivity) headphones correctly, it is a flawed design. A high sensitivity, low impedance headphone should not require an amp.

 

[bigshot]

Just buy an iPod then. I have Oppo PM-1s and they work fine straight out of my iPod.

 

[cjl]

  Just buy an iPod then. I have Oppo PM-1s and they work fine straight out of my iPod.

Now there's a statement I fully agree with. I don't personally have an iPod (I dislike iTunes), but there's pretty much no question that it's an audibly perfect source for any headphones that it can drive to an acceptable volume level.

 

[Claritas]

Just buy an iPod then. I have Oppo PM-1s and they work fine straight out of my iPod.

Right, because of its high sensitivity for a full-sized model and its relatively lower impedance. In other words, it's speced like a lot of IEMs which is precisely what DAPs should minimally be able to handle.

The iPod itself is "colored" insofar as it sounds different from other companies' DAPs and even from some of the earlier iPods. So you try to find the best synergy or you EQ it or both, depending on how much you care.

 

[Roly1650]

Right, because of its high sensitivity for a full-sized model and its relatively lower impedance. In other words, it's speced like a lot of IEMs which is precisely what DAPs should minimally be able to handle.

The iPod itself is "colored" insofar as it sounds different from other companies' DAPs and even from some of the earlier iPods. So you try to find the best synergy or you EQ it or both, depending on how much you care.

iPods, pads and phones are audibly transparent, (neutral), devices into the vast majority of headphones, thus by definition they have no "color". If other players sound different then it's them that are "colored", not the Apple product.

 

[stv014]

[2] Insisting that this is the case doesn't account for what I and others hear.

 
Bias in fact quite often accounts for the alleged differences. The fact that multiple people "hear" them does not prove that they are not imaginary (double-blind tests under well controlled conditions would), as more than one person can easily be affected by the same biases. Especially when they all have the same "common knowledge" from reviews, internet forums, and other sources that for example ESS Sabre DAC chips are clear, detailed, and bright, and thus all expect to hear that same "signature". Additionally, the manufacturer's marketing, and even simple factors like the product's name (a sabre is a sharp and shiny object, so guess what sound one would expect from something named like that sub-consciously ?) and its visual appearance can be a source of bias that is the same for all listeners under sighted conditions.

 

[Claritas]

Bias in fact quite often accounts for the alleged differences. The fact that multiple people "hear" them does not prove that they are not imaginary (double-blind tests under well controlled conditions would), as more than one person can easily be affected by the same biases.

The fact that I hear them is enough for me. If you want to give an explanation that has the potential to appeal to me, it has to explain--not dismiss--my experiences. That's the minimum respect in a discussion anyway.

 

[cjl]

Ahh, but that does explain your experiences. Sighted bias does not say that you are not hearing differences. Rather, it says you are hearing differences that have no correlation to the actual sound. It's an important distinction. As for "respect", you can't simply waltz into sound science and demand that we throw away scientific data and methodology in the name of "respect". If you can show a repeatably discernible difference in double blind testing, then you have some solid evidence that expectation bias isn't to blame, but until that point, it provides the most reasonable (and by far the most likely) explanation for all of your experiences.

 

[bigshot]

The iPod itself is "colored" insofar as it sounds different from other companies' DAPs and even from some of the earlier iPods. So you try to find the best synergy or you EQ it or both, depending on how much you care.

 
Every Apple product I've ever had going all the way back to an ancient 8500AV and a second generation iPod are stone flat. No color at all. I've had dozens of Apple products... all identical.

 

[castleofargh]

I'm an apple hater, so my objectivity is nowhere to be seen on that subject. but I think the different generations of ipods have had different impedances. we're going in circle, but that should account for audible difference on some IEMs.

 

[Claritas]

Ahh, but that does explain your experiences. Sighted bias does not say that you are not hearing differences. Rather, it says you are hearing differences that have no correlation to the actual sound. It's an important distinction. As for "respect", you can't simply waltz into sound science and demand that we throw away scientific data and methodology in the name of "respect". If you can show a repeatably discernible difference in double blind testing, then you have some solid evidence that expectation bias isn't to blame, but until that point, it provides the most reasonable (and by far the most likely) explanation for all of your experiences.

There's nothing scientific about shouting "bias" at everyone in this forum. I'm going to continue to discuss what I'm hearing, and I hope you'll be able to come up with real reasons to explain those differences. So I'm asking you to stop shouting "bias." We're all fully aware of the notion and you're not enlightening anyone.