Colored sound?

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goit /img/forum/go_quote.gif But I can't listen to all the headphones, how can I know which will have what color?

You can't. You should perhaps go with something that the general consensus at Head-Fi says is the least colored or neutral.

Oh wait, forget what I just said

You might like the DT880. Most music sound quite good through them, but they have what I consider to be a coloration in the mid/upper bass.

 

[ronnielee54]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goit /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, but the k501 is discontinued, and there is no way to get it.

There is if you would settle for used. Some cans are worth buying used. Hd580's and K501's are two of those cans. They can be found on the forums if you ever decide to try them. Just post a WTB. I used to be dead set on buying new. My last five cans have been used and have been extremely happy with their condition and have had no problems.

 

[Goit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can't. You should perhaps go with something that the general consensus at Head-Fi says is the least colored or neutral. Oh wait, forget what I just said You might like the DT880. Most music sound quite good through them, but they have what I consider to be a coloration in the mid/upper bass.

They are out of my price range. I'm looking at the 70-150 dollar level in the guide thread.

And aren't the DTs bassy? In classical music you don't want heavy bass.

Which headphone in the 70-150 price range is the most neutral?

 

[FlavioWolff]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif To expand on the analogy of seasoning, you could also use the analogy of butter. With toast, butter is great. With steak, What! With poultry and fish butter can do excellent things too. Its not just a question of putting butter on meat. Colorations are not necessarily a bad thing, but can be. Every one of the 4 or 6 "uncolored" and "reference flat" headphones people throw around as reference standards sounds different. How does that work? If they are uncolored and equally flat everything should sound the same! Well put but to be fair so do senheisers, akg, stax, audio-technicas (not a house sound, but each of their headphones is colored differently) beyerdynamic, and pretty much every transducer in existence. It is also worth note that before the recording even left the studio it was probably changed SIGNIFICANTLY from what merged from the instruments by the recording engineers. This leads us to the question: are the effects of adjusting sound with drivers worse than the EQ that they apply before cutting the wax? I would say not at all. All you can do is pick the color you like. I quite like grados, especially when paired with lower-end amps & sources but the best thing to do is listen to a few headphones the way you will actually use them for yourself.

man, have you ever fried steaks on butter?

 

[Jingo Lingo]

All transducers "colour" the sound to some degree which is why all headphones sound different. It's a matter of what colorations match your taste and the type of music you listen to.

 

[Goit]

Ok, since sennheisers are the best for classical, the HD280 is in my price range, marked down to <100 on amazon with free shipping, and they are the only more expensive sennheisers that doesn't need an amp. So should I go for it? Some call it boring, because it's neutral right? And they say the bass is weak, but chamber music requires low bass.

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goit /img/forum/go_quote.gif They are out of my price range. I'm looking at the 70-150 dollar level in the guide thread. And aren't the DTs bassy? In classical music you don't want heavy bass. Which headphone in the 70-150 price range is the most neutral?

Well, while a bit more than your stated range ($175), I just picked up a set of new-in-box K501s from ebay.

 

[Goit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemonicLemming /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, while a bit more than your stated range ($175), I just picked up a set of new-in-box K501s from ebay.

That place also charge tons for shipping to Canada, so in the end it would be WAY over my budget. You live in the US right?

How are the klipsch custom2? One thing that I worry about that it's an IEM. I'm scared of IEMs.

But there seem to be two kinds of IEMs, one like the custom2, that are "short" like the earbuds. And there is a really long and pointy one. So is there a safety difference like the klipsch one doesn't go so deep into the ear or something?

I heard that the klipsch headphones are good for classical, and they don't require an amp right?

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goit /img/forum/go_quote.gif That place also charge tons for shipping to Canada, so in the end it would be WAY over my budget. You live in the US right? How are the klipsch custom2? One thing that I worry about that it's an IEM. I'm scared of IEMs. But there seem to be two kinds of IEMs, one like the custom2, that are "short" like the earbuds. And there is a really long and pointy one. So is there a safety difference like the klipsch one doesn't go so deep into the ear or something? I heard that the klipsch headphones are good for classical, and they don't require an amp right?

It was only about $10 more for shipping to Canada, I think.

As far as classical goes, I wouldn't be as against bass as you seem to be....I can't imagine listening to Bach, Mahler, or Wagner without a set of speakers or headphones that could accurately reproduce midbass and the lows.

Tough as it is, you might just have to jump in on one set and see how you like them. If you don't, there's always a market here for used stuff, so you could recoup most of your money, and then try a different set.

I'm personally not that into IEMs, but I think the difference is the longer ones tend to direct the sound straight into your ear, making for a cleaner sound, while the more normal "earbud" ones don't quite do that. I could be wrong, but just speaking from the design, it seems like that's how they'd work.

If you're listening to classical with a set of $15 Plantronics now, I think almost any headphone you get, amped or not, is going to sound worlds better. My first set recently was a pair of Skullcandy Skullcrushers - I had to EQ the hell out of them to get any sort of decent sound out of them. Since I got my 780s, my EQ has been flat - never needed to touch it. Even a stock-cable, unamped set of 780s sounds so much different than the stuff you can buy retail normally, it's like comparing a Plymouth Reliant to a Corvette.

 

[Goit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemonicLemming /img/forum/go_quote.gif It was only about $10 more for shipping to Canada, I think. As far as classical goes, I wouldn't be as against bass as you seem to be....I can't imagine listening to Bach, Mahler, or Wagner without a set of speakers or headphones that could accurately reproduce midbass and the lows. Tough as it is, you might just have to jump in on one set and see how you like them. If you don't, there's always a market here for used stuff, so you could recoup most of your money, and then try a different set. I'm personally not that into IEMs, but I think the difference is the longer ones tend to direct the sound straight into your ear, making for a cleaner sound, while the more normal "earbud" ones don't quite do that. I could be wrong, but just speaking from the design, it seems like that's how they'd work. If you're listening to classical with a set of $15 Plantronics now, I think almost any headphone you get, amped or not, is going to sound worlds better. My first set recently was a pair of Skullcandy Skullcrushers - I had to EQ the hell out of them to get any sort of decent sound out of them. Since I got my 780s, my EQ has been flat - never needed to touch it. Even a stock-cable, unamped set of 780s sounds so much different than the stuff you can buy retail normally, it's like comparing a Plymouth Reliant to a Corvette.

Classical, especially early music, requires extreme transparence, with period practice, you get smaller orchestras, lighter sounding instruments, etc... Are you talking about the Romantic performances? Those are much more bassy, but you hear a sound wall, instead of the type of sound that Historically informed performances give you. And Bach is different from Mahler or Wagner, the latter two are 20th century radicals, Bach is of the baroque period, I listen to the former but not the latter ones.

Are all ear plugs called IEMs in general? Like the Ipod earbuds can also be called IEMs? Because I have no problem with earbuds, I just don't like the long and pointy one.

But in general, are the earbuds more cost effective or less cost effective than full sized phones? Because I decided to get headphones because of their cost effectiveness over loudspeakers.

I do use a cheap headpone, but I find it's sound is well rounded and sweet, so even if I get an expensive pair, I would not like it if it's really harsh and bassy.

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goit /img/forum/go_quote.gif Classical, especially early music, requires extreme transparence, with period practice, you get smaller orchestras, lighter sounding instruments, etc... Are you talking about the Romantic performances? Those are much more bassy, but you hear a sound wall, instead of the type of sound that Historically informed performances give you. And Bach is different from Mahler or Wagner, the latter two are 20th century radicals, Bach is of the baroque period, I listen to the former but not the latter ones. Are all ear plugs called IEMs in general? Like the Ipod earbuds can also be called IEMs? Because I have no problem with earbuds, I just don't like the long and pointy one. But in general, are the earbuds more cost effective or less cost effective than full sized phones? Because I decided to get headphones because of their cost effectiveness over loudspeakers. I do use a cheap headpone, but I find it's sound is well rounded and sweet, so even if I get an expensive pair, I would not like it if it's really harsh and bassy.

Not sure on the actual classification....I listen to what I like, and don't concentrate too much on what it's categorized as (if you try to do that in metal, you go insane in about 3 minutes...I've tried). I don't pretend to be a musician or a musical theorist/historian - just someone who loves to listen to music.

IEM is actually "in ear monitor" and I believe it applies specifically to the Ety type of in-ear speaker - the kind that actually descends into the ear canal, rather than just sitting outside.

As far as earbuds being more effective, I really couldn't say. It seems, from the modicum of browsing I've done on here, people are paying a good bit more to get the same type of sonic output from IEMs than they are from "normal" cans. I'd imagine it has to do with driver design and placement, along with a plethora of other design requirements I won't jump in to here. But, as a noob speaking, it seems that circumaural cans are the better expenditure for what you get. That's just me, though.

The other thing you can always do, if you need to tweak what you buy a bit (say it has a tad more bass than you like) is to play with the low end roll-off using an EQ. Might take some fiddling and some time to dial it in right, but it might beat trying 5 different headphones until you find the ones you like.

 

[Goit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemonicLemming /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not sure on the actual classification....I listen to what I like, and don't concentrate too much on what it's categorized as (if you try to do that in metal, you go insane in about 3 minutes...I've tried). I don't pretend to be a musician or a musical theorist/historian - just someone who loves to listen to music. IEM is actually "in ear monitor" and I believe it applies specifically to the Ety type of in-ear speaker - the kind that actually descends into the ear canal, rather than just sitting outside. As far as earbuds being more effective, I really couldn't say. It seems, from the modicum of browsing I've done on here, people are paying a good bit more to get the same type of sonic output from IEMs than they are from "normal" cans. I'd imagine it has to do with driver design and placement, along with a plethora of other design requirements I won't jump in to here. But, as a noob speaking, it seems that circumaural cans are the better expenditure for what you get. That's just me, though. The other thing you can always do, if you need to tweak what you buy a bit (say it has a tad more bass than you like) is to play with the low end roll-off using an EQ. Might take some fiddling and some time to dial it in right, but it might beat trying 5 different headphones until you find the ones you like.

Yeah I just listen to the earlier music on "authentic performances". Those are lighter than the Romantic or 20th century stuff.

Ok I won't get IEMs then, because I'm just looking for the most cost efficient method to get good sound. I don't like shoving stuff into my ears anyways, and thus won't get them if they are less cost efficient than regular headpones.

Thanks for the EQ tip, I would try that. So I guess maybe I'll get the Senn HD280s? They are marked down a lot from MSRP, and they are the only Sennheisers (which are reported to have a "neutral" sound, good for classical right?) that doesn't need an Amp, other such models are like 20 dollars.

And the "anemic" bass for me might be "just right".

I'm just wondering how clear does it sound, is it muddy or anything? How are it's highs and mids? The guide thread just said it can isolate well.

 

[scompton]

As a general rule of thumb

IEMs have armature drivers, like hearing aids, and go into your ear canal. Some go farther in your ear canal than others, non go far enough in that it comes anywhere close to your ear drum or the hairs deep in your ear canal. They provide a complete seal.

Canal phones have dynamic drivers and are inserted into the end of your ear canal. They have foam or rubber tips, like IEMs and seal your ear canal.

Ear buds are like what comes with portable players and don't seal.

Another general rule of thumb is that the farther in your ear they go, the better they isolate.

 

[DemonicLemming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goit /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah I just listen to the earlier music on "authentic performances". Those are lighter than the Romantic or 20th century stuff. Ok I won't get IEMs then, because I'm just looking for the most cost efficient method to get good sound. I don't like shoving stuff into my ears anyways, and thus won't get them if they are less cost efficient than regular headpones. Thanks for the EQ tip, I would try that. So I guess maybe I'll get the Senn HD280s? They are marked down a lot from MSRP, and they are the only Sennheisers (which are reported to have a "neutral" sound, good for classical right?) that doesn't need an Amp, other such models are like 20 dollars. And the "anemic" bass for me might be "just right". I'm just wondering how clear does it sound, is it muddy or anything? How are it's highs and mids? The guide thread just said it can isolate well.

I'd imagine the mids and highs are relatively clear, although that's really one of those things that depends on each person's ear.

 

[catscratch]

Colorations stem from irregularities in the frequency response. For instance, sibilance is a particular type of coloration that exaggerates "s" and "ch" sounds to the point that they can become painful and distracting. That stems from a peak at the 8kHz region for "s" sounds and a peak at around 4kHz for "ch" sounds. This is called a coloration in general terms since it's not there on the original recording.

A good analogy would be color filters used in photography. They could be subtle, i.e. a weak yellow filter to give a sunrise or sunset a more mellow tone color, or they could be quite pronounced, and color the entire photograph with unnatural tones. Audio colorations work pretty much the same way - by exaggerating certain regions of the frequency response, you can change instrument tone and make it something other than what it is on the recording.

Most colorations stem from irregularities in the midrange. Emphasized upper mids, like on the Stax SR-404 for instance, give instruments a thinner and more distant sound, but at the same time, music appears more airy and spatious. None of this is on the original recording usually, and so is a coloration. Single-ended HD650 tends to emphasize lower midrange and has a dip in the upper midrange and lower treble - which gives a warmer tone to instruments and more saturated tone color (think of warming up color tone and racking up saturation in Photoshop) which sounds very pretty, but can cause the general sonic picture to sound congested and can cause some tonal and harmonic nuances to be lost.

I'm not sure what your price range is, but you will struggle pretty hard to find a neutral headphone until you hit stuff like the Sennheiser HD600. Most headphones that are well and truly neutral tend to be pretty expensive (HP1000, well-driven Omega 2 or 4070, K1000 in the right rig) but the HD600 can be had for relatively little $ and is neutral in a fairly neutral system. Of course you have to amp it, at 300 ohms it can't be driven straight out of a headphone jack.

A lot of people tend to confuse bright with neutral. A bright headphone can be a lot more revealing since it highlights treble regions which makes detail more readily audible. A great example here is the Ety ER-4S. It has gigantic peaks in the treble which make it very revealing of inner detail, but it's hardly neutral from a tonal point of view, and yet it's very commonly recommended when a neutral headphone is asked for (IMO of course).

[RE HD280: it has pretty woeful bass from what I remember; it's there but you have to EQ it out, or use a bassy amp. I wouldn't recommend it for another reason though - the headbands on them are notoriously fragile and tend to crack. I'm not sure about tone color and how good the mids are - from what I remember, not bad, but my memory of them is fading.]