[Hooster]

For now, I think I’ll do something else that is a bit different and cheaper, like a nice separate DAC into a powerful headphone amplifier perhaps. It may not sound as good as a Chord DAC, but the budget and setup will be more to my liking. Otherwise, sorry Chord, but I will keep a hawkeye on your future products.

Many thanks for your contribution. While I like Chord products in a sense, I have owned a Mojo, I can't get over the price, styling, etc.. I am certainly keeping an eye on any future products but a great deal will have to change before I buy anything from Chord.

 

[F208Frank]

Random Note/Reference for Others Despite It Being Common Knowledge:

I went Abyss TC1266 direct into DAVE for the past month after removing an external amp from the chain and felt that the DAVE ran the Abyss pretty decently.

As time went on, it became clear that the "No External AMP DAVE" with Abyss is not enough. This was especially noticeable after adding back the external amp in the chain.

It was quite fun to experience/witness the differences over a longer period of time rather than to do the sloppy quick A/B that's often used.

This post is common knowledge yes, but despite "No External AMP DAVE" with Abyss sounding decent, do not kid yourself in that the power from DAVE is enough.

I wanted to make this post because a few members have found that the DAVE itself powering the Abyss being acceptable, except that we forgot to define acceptable.

Though decent for sure from DAVE direct, the external amp reminds you why the Abyss is the Abyss.

 

[jlbrach]

I thought it acceptable as well initially but in truth in order for the 1266 TC to really perform as it can it needs an external amp

 

[F208Frank]

I thought it acceptable as well initially but in truth in order for the 1266 TC to really perform as it can it needs an external amp

Amen.

 

[JTbbb]

Hello,

I know a number of people here are running a two channel system with Dave, and also some of our TT2 brethren, but what I would like to know is, has anyone inserted a Pre-Amp between DAC and power amp?

Reading the hifi press it would seem adding a good Pre-Amp can have quite a positive effect on SQ, has anyone experienced this? I can’t help but think it is just putting another box of electronics in the signal path.

Thanks

 

[Triode User]

Hello,

I know a number of people here are running a two channel system with Dave, and also some of our TT2 brethren, but what I would like to know is, has anyone inserted a Pre-Amp between DAC and power amp?

Reading the hifi press it would seem adding a good Pre-Amp can have quite a positive effect on SQ, has anyone experienced this? I can’t help but think it is just putting another box of electronics in the signal path.

Thanks

I am a two channel speaker user and over a few years or owning a Dave I have come to the conclusion that the best sound quality is to take Dave direct into the power amp for the maximum transparency. Adding a pre amp only seems to act like a tone control with a resulting loss of quality.

The only exception in my experience is that if the power amp is a valve (tube) amp then, and only then, there is an advantage in using either an active pre amp or a Music First TVC or similar. Somehow Dave direct into a valve power amp results in a woolly bass and indistinct midrange, IMHO of course.

 

[F208Frank]

I am a two channel speaker user and over a few years or owning a Dave I have come to the conclusion that the best sound quality is to take Dave direct into the power amp for the maximum transparency. Adding a pre amp only seems to act like a tone control with a resulting loss of quality.

The only exception in my experience is that if the power amp is a valve (tube) amp then, and only then, there is an advantage in using either an active pre amp or a Music First TVC or similar. Somehow Dave direct into a valve power amp results in a woolly bass and indistinct midrange, IMHO of course.

Do you think your results with the Dave to direct amp is due to the DAVE having a good pre amp or in a general sense not having a pre amp in all systems being better as it would only act as a tone control?

DAVE specific or in general specific?

Thanks in advance, was always curious about this myself.

 

[audio_1]

Do you think your results with the Dave to direct amp is due to the DAVE having a good pre amp or in a general sense not having a pre amp in all systems being better as it would only act as a tone control?

DAVE specific or in general specific?

Thanks in advance, was always curious about this myself.

The reason imho is because Dave has a transparent digital volume control that doesn't affect dynamics when listening at low levels. An additional pre amp, even a good one adds a lot of components to the signal path, analogue interconnects, input buffers, volume control, gain stage, more power supplies, etc. Eliminating an analogue pre-amp also saves a lot of money.
This is with Dave, some DACs have analogue volume controls (MSB for example), or digital volume controls that affect dynamics (dCS) unless the output voltage is adjusted to match the power amp gain.

 

[llamaluv]

This post is common knowledge yes, but despite "No External AMP DAVE" with Abyss sounding decent, do not kid yourself in that the power from DAVE is enough.

Strongly agree with this. Recently, I listened to the Utopia/DAVE headphone-out combo for a couple days straight (which I like very much nowadays), then listened to the Abyss TC out of the DAVE for a couple minutes, and ... the soundstage made me feel like I was listening to the Utopia. Then, plugged the TC back into an external amp like I normally would, and all was well again.

I know a number of people here are running a two channel system with Dave, and also some of our TT2 brethren, but what I would like to know is, has anyone inserted a Pre-Amp between DAC and power amp?

I did this as a test not too long ago, though with headphones, not speakers:

Two amps I use with the Abyss TC are a Benchmark HPA4 headphone amp and a Pass Labs X150.8 power amp. When using the X150.8, I use the DAVE as the "preamp". However, the HPA4 is designed for use as a preamp as much as a headphone amp, so I tried: DAVE in "DAC mode" to HPA4 in "preamp mode" to X150.8 to the Abyss TC.

And... it made the X150.8 take on the character of the HPA4, lol. The X150.8 is relatively warm, more tonally dense, and somewhat "analog-like"; the HPA4 is on the cool side, with an emphasis on transients though with a "lighter touch", and has lots of soundstage width. And I heard all those characteristics of the HPA4 coming through the X150.8, and felt like they were the dominant characteristics of the resulting sound. It didn't sound less transparent than the X150.8 by itself I didn't feel like, though maybe a shade less transparent than the HPA4 by itself, hard to say.

So it was an interesting test, though with these specific pieces of equipment, if I wanted the HPA4 sound I'd just use the HPA4 directly, since it's a headphone amp and I'm just using headphones. I'm not sure if there's a broader generalization to be made from what I just described except to say that a preamp can definitely change the sound signature, and in some cases, even with the possibility of using the DAVE as the volume control at hand, I could see that having a place.

 

[JTbbb]

Thanks guys for the responses, most helpful. Funnily enough it was the HPA4 that was getting my interest. I’ve also just found out that my local dealer can supply Benchmark, and that he has recently supplied one. So I might just get the chance sometime in the future to demo one.

 

[JTbbb]

I was speaking to my local dealer earlier and this is what he says:-

“In some instances, the inclusion of an analogue pre-amp can help overcome issues with any volume controls that operate in the digital domain.”

So it seems that it could boil down to how effective the design is of a digital volume control, and my guess would be that Dave has a very good one!

The only other consideration is if people have analogue equipment they would like to use, as Dave has no analogue inputs.

 

[Deano1974]

Hello,

I know a number of people here are running a two channel system with Dave, and also some of our TT2 brethren, but what I would like to know is, has anyone inserted a Pre-Amp between DAC and power amp?

Reading the hifi press it would seem adding a good Pre-Amp can have quite a positive effect on SQ, has anyone experienced this? I can’t help but think it is just putting another box of electronics in the signal path.

Thanks

I Agree wholeheartedly with Triode as I'm running 2 channel with valve monoblocks, using Dave direct was to digital for me, slightly thin sounding, putting my Valve preamp in the chain and using Dave in Dac mode created a smoother and more dynamic sound

 

[Triode User]

I Agree wholeheartedly with Triode as I'm running 2 channel with valve monoblocks, using Dave direct was to digital for me, slightly thin sounding, putting my Valve preamp in the chain and using Dave in Dac mode created a smoother and more dynamic sound

I tried Dave direct into various valve power amps - 2A3, 300B, 845, and none of them sounded great. A pre amp sorted all of them. I’m not talking about tone or colour but fundamental issues with flabby base etc.

Additionally I did some experiments with Dave, my MFA preamp and a pair of 845 PP monos.

Dave at 0dB, preamp at -30dB — great sound.
Dave at -30dB, preamp at 0dB — poor sound.

 

[adrianm]

So what's the consensus on direct-to-Dave vs using a headphone amp with headphones that the Dave could run easily? Like my Z1R's for example.I see a lot of people are suggesting that the Amp is more important than the Dac (Because of..reasons?) and suggest spending more on the amp as it will ultimately make more of a difference.I find that hard to believe and counterintuitive but i'm curios as for what the arguments are for each side.Why would a more powerful amp make sense or even matter?

 

[iDesign]

So what's the consensus on direct-to-Dave vs using a headphone amp with headphones that the Dave could run easily? Like my Z1R's for example.I see a lot of people are suggesting that the Amp is more important than the Dac (Because of..reasons?) and suggest spending more on the amp as it will ultimately make more of a difference.I find that hard to believe and counterintuitive but i'm curios as for what the arguments are for each side.Why would a more powerful amp make sense or even matter?

I’m not sure anyone is advocating using the DAVE and a separate amplifier with the Sony MDR-Z1R.