CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Nov 7, 2018 at 3:57 PM Post #12,571 of 25,873
my photos were just quick ones whilst I decided where to place the speakers
Some tips:
  • near field listening will give you the purest, direct, sound - the sound the pros get when they're listening to the recordings they're making - and a sound stage that goes far outside your listening room giving you musicians that are life-sized
  • in a near field setup there should be no wall closer than about 1m to the midrange/tweeter (including the wall behind the speaker), otherwise you'll get sound reflections that spoil transparency and sound stage, because your brain interprets early sound reflections as being part of the sound of each instrument in the recording
  • The "hi-fi" ATC speakers are meant to be used with the grilles on, as the grille has curved surfaces to minimise diffraction problems that would be caused by the sharp edges around the front of the speakers
  • ATCs are meant to be toed-in so that the tweeter is pointing at the respective ear or slightly behind
  • the midrange driver should be at ear height - if ear height is lower you might like to try tilting the speaker forwards (longer spike setting at the back)
  • for power, DAVE and the ATCs should all go into the same wall socket, to minimise the voltage differences caused by all three of them being mains-powered, which minimises the strength of any RF noise that could pollute the sound
I'm suitably envious. I have a lot of domestic refurbishment to do before I could get my own at home.
 
Nov 7, 2018 at 4:57 PM Post #12,572 of 25,873
Some tips:
  • near field listening will give you the purest, direct, sound - the sound the pros get when they're listening to the recordings they're making - and a sound stage that goes far outside your listening room giving you musicians that are life-sized
  • in a near field setup there should be no wall closer than about 1m to the midrange/tweeter (including the wall behind the speaker), otherwise you'll get sound reflections that spoil transparency and sound stage, because your brain interprets early sound reflections as being part of the sound of each instrument in the recording
  • The "hi-fi" ATC speakers are meant to be used with the grilles on, as the grille has curved surfaces to minimise diffraction problems that would be caused by the sharp edges around the front of the speakers
  • ATCs are meant to be toed-in so that the tweeter is pointing at the respective ear or slightly behind
  • the midrange driver should be at ear height - if ear height is lower you might like to try tilting the speaker forwards (longer spike setting at the back)
  • for power, DAVE and the ATCs should all go into the same wall socket, to minimise the voltage differences caused by all three of them being mains-powered, which minimises the strength of any RF noise that could pollute the sound
I'm suitably envious. I have a lot of domestic refurbishment to do before I could get my own at home.

Thank you for all that. It was kind of you to spend time. I will take note and try them all. Thank you again.
 
Nov 7, 2018 at 5:52 PM Post #12,573 of 25,873
A warning against toe-in: Yes, not doing so will provoke an upper-treble fall-off, but you could perfectly equalize it. If you toe the speakers in, the imbalance within the dispersion pattern will aggravate, i.e. the upper treble sounds much drier than the rest, which leads to an unnatural and potentially irritating (typical «speaker») sound. The theoretical ideal would be uniform dispersion across the whole spectrum.
 
Nov 9, 2018 at 5:42 PM Post #12,574 of 25,873
A warning against toe-in: Yes, not doing so will provoke an upper-treble fall-off, but you could perfectly equalize it. If you toe the speakers in, the imbalance within the dispersion pattern will aggravate, i.e. the upper treble sounds much drier than the rest, which leads to an unnatural and potentially irritating (typical «speaker») sound. The theoretical ideal would be uniform dispersion across the whole spectrum.
Luckily ATCs are designed to be used toed-in, it's what ATC shows in the manual and it's how people set them up.

Nearby walls are a serious problem. Muddled, early, reflections cause the sound stage to shrink in scale and lose depth. In the extreme, you end up with a "miniature" sound stage. Toe-in can't solve problems with nearby walls, unfortunately.

This is why the Audio Physic setup is so amazing. With this setup the walls cannot produce a reflected sound that arrives within 5ms of the direct speaker sound, and so your brain completely detaches the reflected sounds from the speaker sound. You get the pure, "giant headphones" effect from the near field configuration of the speakers, but with a sound stage you can measure in metres, not centimetres.

If you feel like you can walk through the sound stage, then you have succeeded in setting up the speakers so that the room doesn't interfere. If the speakers are freed from the walls, toe-in gives you the smoothest and most neutral frequency response. That's how ATC speakers are designed to work.
 
Nov 9, 2018 at 7:00 PM Post #12,575 of 25,873
Luckily ATCs are designed to be used toed-in, it's what ATC shows in the manual and it's how people set them up.

Nearby walls are a serious problem. Muddled, early, reflections cause the sound stage to shrink in scale and lose depth. In the extreme, you end up with a "miniature" sound stage. Toe-in can't solve problems with nearby walls, unfortunately.

This is why the Audio Physic setup is so amazing. With this setup the walls cannot produce a reflected sound that arrives within 5ms of the direct speaker sound, and so your brain completely detaches the reflected sounds from the speaker sound. You get the pure, "giant headphones" effect from the near field configuration of the speakers, but with a sound stage you can measure in metres, not centimetres.

If you feel like you can walk through the sound stage, then you have succeeded in setting up the speakers so that the room doesn't interfere. If the speakers are freed from the walls, toe-in gives you the smoothest and most neutral frequency response. That's how ATC speakers are designed to work.
I'm aware that many speaker manufacturers give this recommendation – because it's the only way to achieve a passably extended high-frequency response.

When it comes to reflections, it's not just the near-field reflections that count, but all reflections caused by all surfaces of the listening room. Near-field reflections have the most detrimental effect, as they interfer with the direct sound in a way that makes them indistinguishable from it. Later reflections are part of the ambiance as unavoidable – and partly wanted – contribution from the listening room, since you wouldn't want to enjoy your music in an anechoic chamber; it would sound unnatural and virtually inedible. This in contrast to listening to music on an open-air concert, even without reflection from a stage. I know what I'm talking about, since my own open-air gigs as a bass player were the highlights in my career as an active musician. Now what's the difference between an anechoic chamber and the free field? It's the residual reflections and resonances at low frequencies, which are extremely hard or actually impossible to completely eliminate. So why is the sonic experience in an anechoic chamber so unenjoyable, given that those low-frequency reflections are still magnitudes below those in a typical listening room? The cause is the extreme discrepancy in the frequency distrubution among the reflected sound.

Exactly the same results from the uneven dispersion pattern of typical speakers. At the upper end of each driver's frequency range it becomes narrower, especially noticeable with the tweeter – the main responsible for the toe-in recommendation. If you're familiar with electroacoustics, you may know that the theoretical ideal is an even dispersion of sound energy across the whole frequency spectrum – in all directions. Conventional speakers are far from this goal. In this context toe-in is necessary because of exactly this weakness – a drop-off of highest frequencies off axis – but toeing-in aggravates the discrepancy between reality and ideal, since those highest frequencies now are quasi projected towards the listener like a spotlight, while the off-axis sound in this frequency range is massively subdued, which leads to a speaker characteristic with «wet» low- and mid-frequencies and a continuously drier high-frequency reproduction (roughly spoken; in fact multiway speakers additionally suffer from [vertical] interferences between the drivers).

I'm absolutely aware that the resulting sound is kind of adapted as a «normal» speaker sound, and I agree (just like the majority of music listeners has adapted to the CD sound). But it's not optimal, and I'm trying to offer my experience as a former speaker builder who knows what's actually possible. Not toeing in your speakers is just a simple measure to avoid the worst-case scenario, ideally combined with active equalizing.

Logically near-field speakers suffer less from this problem, but in my experience it's nevertheless beneficial to avoid heavily uneven dispersion characteristics – and particularly large, reflective speaker baffles: the source of extremely harmful near-field reflections. Of course that doesn't just apply to the latter category.
 
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Nov 9, 2018 at 7:44 PM Post #12,576 of 25,873
I'm aware that many speaker manufacturers give this recommendation – because it's the only way to achieve a passably extended high-frequency response.

When it comes to reflections, it's not just the near-field reflections that count, but all reflections caused by all surfaces of the listening room. Near-field reflections have the most detrimental effect, as they interfer with the direct sound in a way that makes them indistinguishable from it. Later reflections are part of the ambiance as unavoidable – and partly wanted – contribution from the listening room, since you wouldn't want to enjoy your music in an anechoic chamber; it would sound unnatural and virtually inedible. This in contrast to listening to music on an open-air concert, even without reflection from a stage. I know what I'm talking about, since my own open-air gigs as a bass player were the highlights in my career as an active musician. Now what's the difference between an anechoic chamber and the free field? It's the residual reflections and resonances at low frequencies, which are extremely hard or actually impossible to completely eliminate. So why is the sonic experience in an anechoic chamber so unenjoyable, given that those low-frequency reflections are still magnitudes below those in a typical listening room? The cause is the extreme discrepancy in the frequency distrubution among the reflected sound.

Exactly the same results from the uneven dispersion pattern of typical speakers. At the upper end of each driver's frequency range it becomes narrower, especially noticeable with the tweeter – the main responsible for the toe-in recommendation. If you're familiar with electroacoustics, you may know that the theoretical ideal is an even dispersion of sound energy across the whole frequency spectrum – in all directions. Conventional speakers are far from this goal. In this context toe-in is necessary because of exactly this weakness – a drop-off of highest frequencies off axis – but toeing-in aggravates the discrepancy between reality and ideal, since those highest frequencies now are quasi projected towards the listener like a spotlight, while the off-axis sound in this frequency range is massively subdued, which leads to a speaker characteristic with «wet» low- and mid-frequencies and a continuously drier high-frequency reproduction (roughly spoken; in fact multiway speakers additionally suffer from [vertical] interferences between the drivers).

I'm absolutely aware that the resulting sound is kind of adapted as a «normal» speaker sound, and I agree (just like the majority of music listeners has adapted to the CD sound). But it's not optimal, and I'm trying to offer my experience as a former speaker builder who knows what's actually possible. Not toeing in your speakers is just a simple measure to avoid the worst-case scenario, ideally combined with active equalizing.

Logically near-field speakers suffer less from this problem, but in my experience it's nevertheless beneficial to avoid heavily uneven dispersion characteristics – and particularly large, reflective speaker baffles: the source of extremely harmful near-field reflections. Of course that doesn't just apply to the latter category.
There is an excellent video on loudspeaker placement by Hans Beekhuyzen. It covers placement, room treatment, toe-in. It gives the theory, and simple practical tips. The best video I have seen on this topic, most of the essentials in one place.
 
Nov 9, 2018 at 8:29 PM Post #12,577 of 25,873
I don't think you have read my post careful enough...

I have nothing to add. Except that above recommendation is the worst thing I can think of.
 
Nov 9, 2018 at 9:49 PM Post #12,578 of 25,873
The video discusses amount of toe-in and its dependence on speaker design.
 
Nov 10, 2018 at 1:52 PM Post #12,580 of 25,873
For DAVE owners experiencing momentary dropouts with the Blu Mk II on BNC 1 and 2, can anyone confirm if this occurs less or none at all with Hugo M Scaler?
 
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Nov 10, 2018 at 2:17 PM Post #12,581 of 25,873
For DAVE owners experiencing momentary dropouts with the Blu Mk II on BNC 1 and 2, can anyone confirm if this occurs less or none at all with Hugo M Scaler?
I definitely get them with the M-Scaler. I get more drop outs on 1 and 2, occasional on 3 and 4. I will try another set of BNC cables to see if they make a difference. If not I may exchange for a new unit.

I have not tried a Blu, so I can’t say how it compares. I wonder if it a Dave issue or a Blu / M-Scaler issue?
 
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Nov 10, 2018 at 3:40 PM Post #12,582 of 25,873
I definitely get them with the M-Scaler. I get more drop outs on 1 and 2, occasional on 3 and 4. I will try another set of BNC cables to see if they make a difference. If not I may exchange for a new unit.

I have not tried a Blu, so I can’t say how it compares. I wonder if it a Dave issue or a Blu / M-Scaler issue?
Interesting. I reread all of the previous posts on the subject of M Scaler+DAVE dropouts but the technical reasoning for it hasn’t been been sufficiently explained especially since it apparently is not an issue with the Hugo TT 2.
 
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Nov 10, 2018 at 3:45 PM Post #12,583 of 25,873
Interesting. I reread all of the previous posts on the subject of M Scaler+DAVE dropouts but the technical reasoning for it hasn’t been been sufficiently explained especially since it apparently is not an issue with the Hugo TT 2.
I did read a post form Rob Watts (Blu thread I believe) indicating the DAVE is sensitive to this. I have not read reports of the M-Scaler / TT2 having drop-outs, but the TT2 is just getting out there so maybe we haven't heard yet. Or maybe it is less sensitive. It only happens in Dual BNC mode.
 
Nov 11, 2018 at 4:49 AM Post #12,584 of 25,873
I definitely get them with the M-Scaler. I get more drop outs on 1 and 2, occasional on 3 and 4. I will try another set of BNC cables to see if they make a difference. If not I may exchange for a new unit.

I have not tried a Blu, so I can’t say how it compares. I wonder if it a Dave issue or a Blu / M-Scaler issue?
I did some investigation. I had suspected a BNC cable issue, but that appears to be a red herring, the issue is upstream. I have narrowed it down to the M-Scaler USB input. I get no drop outs whatsoever on the optical input. I get dropouts on the USB input regardless of source (iMac, iPad, iPhone), player (Roon, Tidal or iTunes) or cable (tried several USB cables). The drop outs are very frequent when I connect the M-Scaler to the DAVE on BNC 1 and 2, less frequent but still there on BNC 3 and 4. It only occurs in dual BNC mode. Jiggling the BNC cables produces drop-outs in all cases, but I now realize it is unrelated to the above.

I wonder if this is same thing some BLU owners have seen. The BLU does not have optical input so I guess this is hard to test.
 
Nov 11, 2018 at 5:00 AM Post #12,585 of 25,873
I did read a post form Rob Watts (Blu thread I believe) indicating the DAVE is sensitive to this. I have not read reports of the M-Scaler / TT2 having drop-outs, but the TT2 is just getting out there so maybe we haven't heard yet. Or maybe it is less sensitive. It only happens in Dual BNC mode.

I was talking (proper talking on the phone) to someone this week who was having drop outs with his Dave and we have sort of come to the conclusion that it was slightly loose bnc connections rather than an issue as such with Dave. He had decided that because he could wedge the cables in a certain place and stop the drop outs.

I did some investigation. I had suspected a BNC cable issue, but that appears to be a red herring, the issue is upstream. I have narrowed it down to the M-Scaler USB input. I get no drop outs whatsoever on the optical input. I get dropouts on the USB input regardless of source (iMac, iPad, iPhone), player (Roon, Tidal or iTunes) or cable (tried several USB cables). The drop outs are very frequent when I connect the M-Scaler to the DAVE on BNC 1 and 2, less frequent but still there on BNC 3 and 4. It only occurs in dual BNC mode. Jiggling the BNC cables produces drop-outs in all cases, but I now realize it is unrelated to the above.

I wonder if this is same thing some BLU owners have seen. The BLU does not have optical input so I guess this is hard to test.

I have a Blu2 and MScaler and do not get any drop oust no matter how hard I wiggle the cables at either the Dave end or the other end. In fact I have never had a single drop out despite using teh Blu2 and MScaler since they were first available. I know you seem to be concluding that your drop outs are not to do with the BNC connections and are somehow related to the USB input but I just wonder if you have a less than perfect electrical connection within the BNC connectors (drop outs if you wiggle them) then perhaps the connection is not good enough to sustain the dual BNC protocol.
 

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