[Jawed]

I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.

Some manufacturers of hi-fi deliberately engineer faults into their power amplifiers so that their pre-amps improve the perceived performance.

If on the other hand, you just like colouration, then I dunno, why buy DAVE?

I can only guess these people who like polluting DAVE's output would hate listening to the master tape because it's lacking colouration.

Now playing: The Silver Mt. Zion Memorial Orchestra & Tra-La-La Band - Could've Moved Mountains

 

[Mediahound]

I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.
 

 
Their system could be totally optimal. It could  just mean they prefer a less detailed sound. 

 

[Jawed]

It could  just mean they prefer a less detailed sound. 

Which is an automatic disqualification on trustworthiness, in my opinion.

Now playing: Sigur Rós - Svefn-G-Englar

 

[JaZZ]

 

I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.

 
Their system could be totally optimal. It could  just mean they prefer a less detailed sound. 

 
Possible, but unlikely. Why would anyone at a live concert want the sound to be less detailed? I really suspect the introduced colorations (not necessarily noticed as such) serve for masking imperfections in the chain (speaking from own experience, BTW).

 

[EVOLVIST]

But what is "coloration?" Even at the amp we have coloration. The speaker cables or the headphone cables, the same thing. Neutrality is a skyhook. It doesn't exist. It is something that can be strived for, but even if reached we wouldn't know it.

Other components in the signal path after the DAVE? I think about it. If it's doubtful that we can hear 1% distortion, what does that say for 0.000007% THD+N from the DAVE going into a preamp that has 0.0007% distortion? Is it really a bottleneck that much below what we cannot hear? Even going by the specs, most Chord amps align with what's pretty much become a standard at 0.05%.

But, distortion isn't the whole of it, and I get stuck on those numbers, even though low distortion might have gobs of 3rd order harmonics. The numbers are only a partial path.

What I grapple with is that short of the DAVE's headphone output, there's nothing out there that seems it won't muddy the waters a bit, if it's an amp, a cable, or whatever.

What then does that say for running a Blu2 into DAVE then into several different paths that effect the small signals we so desire? Nothing? Everything? I mean, I really don't know.

 

[drbobbybones]

But what is "coloration?" Even at the amp we have coloration. The speaker cables or the headphone cables, the same thing. Neutrality is a skyhook. It doesn't exist. It is something that can be strived for, but even if reached we wouldn't know it.

Other components in the signal path after the DAVE? I think about it. If it's doubtful that we can hear 1% distortion, what does that say for 0.000007% THD+N from the DAVE going into a preamp that has 0.0007% distortion? Is it really a bottleneck that much below what we cannot hear? Even going by the specs, most Chord amps align with what's pretty much become a standard at 0.05%.

But, distortion isn't the whole of it, and I get stuck on those numbers, even though low distortion might have gobs of 3rd order harmonics. The numbers are only a partial path.

What I grapple with is that short of the DAVE's headphone output, there's nothing out there that seems it won't muddy the waters a bit, if it's an amp, a cable, or whatever.

What then does that say for running a Blu2 into DAVE then into several different paths that effect the small signals we so desire? Nothing? Everything? I mean, I really don't know.

I couldn't agree more with this. Neutral is a myth. Go to a paint store sometime and see how many shades of white there are. Same with amplifiers, DACs, headphones, cables... etc.

And sometimes I just like the warm sound of tubes. Something about the process of warming them up and seeing them flow is part of the fun as well. I guess that makes me "untrustworthy"

 

[JaZZ]

 

But what is "coloration?" Even at the amp we have coloration. The speaker cables or the headphone cables, the same thing. Neutrality is a skyhook. It doesn't exist. It is something that can be strived for, but even if reached we wouldn't know it.

Other components in the signal path after the DAVE? I think about it. If it's doubtful that we can hear 1% distortion, what does that say for 0.000007% THD+N from the DAVE going into a preamp that has 0.0007% distortion? Is it really a bottleneck that much below what we cannot hear? Even going by the specs, most Chord amps align with what's pretty much become a standard at 0.05%.

But, distortion isn't the whole of it, and I get stuck on those numbers, even though low distortion might have gobs of 3rd order harmonics. The numbers are only a partial path.

What I grapple with is that short of the DAVE's headphone output, there's nothing out there that seems it won't muddy the waters a bit, if it's an amp, a cable, or whatever.

What then does that say for running a Blu2 into DAVE then into several different paths that effect the small signals we so desire? Nothing? Everything? I mean, I really don't know.

I couldn't agree more with this. Neutral is a myth. Go to a paint store sometime and see how many shades of white there are. Same with amplifiers, DACs, headphones, cables... etc.

And sometimes I just like the warm sound of tubes. Something about the process of warming them up and seeing them flow is part of the fun as well. I guess that makes me "untrustworthy"

 
«Neutral is a myth»: If you mean that absolute neutrality in music reproduction is unachievable, then you're right. If you mean it isn't a worthwile ideal, you're wrong IMO. Even if the colorations may not be in the way of subjectively perceived musicality, they always come at the price of reduced transparency, particularly in the case of electronics components (you don't have to care for the ridiculously small distortion numbers, it suffices that every amp has its tonal fingerprint, hence the audibility is out of question). And «tube sound» is just another means for masking tonal flaws in the playback chain – I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey. So the really appropriate approach is to care for the flaws instead of masking them. And to take note of them in the first place.
 
That said, if you like tube sound, more power to you. It's just that you don't know what you miss until you go the puristic route systematically.

 

[Triode User]

   
«Neutral is a myth»: If you mean that absolute neutrality in music reproduction is unachievable, then you're right. If you mean it isn't a worthwile ideal, you're wrong IMO. Even if the colorations may not be in the way of subjectively perceived musicality, they always come at the price of reduced transparency, particularly in the case of electronics components (you don't have to care for the ridiculously small distortion numbers, it suffices that every amp has its tonal fingerprint, hence the audibility is out of question). And «tube sound» is just another means for masking tonal flaws in the playback chain – I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey. So the really appropriate approach is to care for the flaws instead of masking them. And to take note of them in the first place.
 
That said, if you like tube sound, more power to you. It's just that you don't know what you miss until you go the puristic route systematically.

The tube sound is a myth.
 
«I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey»  - Well actually many amplified live events are 'tubey' because tube amps continue to be the preferred method of amplification for many musicians. But they don't sound 'tubey' to you because your idea of tubey (ie soft, 'warm' and less incisive) is a myth. Tube amps are not soft etc unless they have been 'voiced' to sound that way. Modern good tube amps are fast, high on detail and very realistic. They absolutely thrash many ss amps in that respect.

 

[JaZZ]

 

  «Neutral is a myth»: If you mean that absolute neutrality in music reproduction is unachievable, then you're right. If you mean it isn't a worthwile ideal, you're wrong IMO. Even if the colorations may not be in the way of subjectively perceived musicality, they always come at the price of reduced transparency, particularly in the case of electronics components (you don't have to care for the ridiculously small distortion numbers, it suffices that every amp has its tonal fingerprint, hence the audibility is out of question). And «tube sound» is just another means for masking tonal flaws in the playback chain – I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey. So the really appropriate approach is to care for the flaws instead of masking them. And to take note of them in the first place.
 
That said, if you like tube sound, more power to you. It's just that you don't know what you miss until you go the puristic route systematically.

The tube sound is a myth.
 
«I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey»  - Well actually many amplified live events are 'tubey' because tube amps continue to be the preferred method of amplification for many musicians. But they don't sound 'tubey' to you because your idea of tubey (ie soft, 'warm' and less incisive) is a myth. Tube amps are not soft etc unless they have been 'voiced' to sound that way. Modern good tube amps are fast, high on detail and very realistic. They absolutely thrash many ss amps in that respect.

 
Yeah, I was just referring to drbobbyjones' statement that he likes «tube sound». It's not that all tube amps sound the same, but there's certainly a characteristic difference to solid-state gear, although not uniformly pronounced. BTW, I don't belong to those who think tube amps are generally less honest than solid-state amps. And BTW (2), I had acoustic musical instruments in mind when I was talking of a live event.

 

[astrostar59]

  The tube sound is a myth.

«I guess you'd never have the wish to make a live event sound tubey»  - Well actually many amplified live events are 'tubey' because tube amps continue to be the preferred method of amplification for many musicians. But they don't sound 'tubey' to you because your idea of tubey (ie soft, 'warm' and less incisive) is a myth. Tube amps are not soft etc unless they have been 'voiced' to sound that way. Modern good tube amps are fast, high on detail and very realistic. They absolutely thrash many ss amps in that respect.

Totally agree. I think it a hang over from the parents / grandparents 1950's gramophone which had a very rolled off treble response and a single driver more suited to midrange and bass response. The design of those old tube radios and amplifiers was typically way under spec power supplies, muddy and slow coupling capacitors and poor current delivery and control. Basically warm as hell.
 
It is a fact a decent tube ran to spec can have a fantastically wide frequency response, well beyond the 20K limit of human hearing and into 100k in some cases. And with transformers on the output a tube based design can have superb control and drive. And IMO can also have fantastic transparency AND smooth delivery. Remember solid state amplification are switching devices, and that can generate noise. That is generally why running them in high bias as Class A makes them sound better, and more 'tube like'. For example I used to run 300B SET mono blocks, but now use a solid state Plinius SA-103 which runs Class A and sounds 'ruby' But in that case I read tuby as transparent AND super smooth treble response.
 
So yeah, the idea tubes are buzzy and noisy, rolled off devices is actually a relic from audio history. Well that is as long as the amp is well design, as in anything.

 

[dguitarnut]

I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.

Some manufacturers of hi-fi deliberately engineer faults into their power amplifiers so that their pre-amps improve the perceived performance.

If on the other hand, you just like colouration, then I dunno, why buy DAVE?

I can only guess these people who like polluting DAVE's output would hate listening to the master tape because it's lacking colouration.

Now playing: The Silver Mt. Zion Memorial Orchestra & Tra-La-La Band - Could've Moved Mountains

Put me in the untrustworthy category, and throw in my dealer. We both have not heard any Dac with volume control built in sound better without a Preamp in between at least with speaker systems.
Larry

 

[astrostar59]

Put me in the untrustworthy category, and throw in my dealer. We both have not heard any Dac with volume control built in sound better without a Preamp in between at least with speaker systems.
Larry

It can work, in some cases extremely well.. Example Lampizator Golden Gate running DHTs and with high output and analogue volume pot. Ask on the Lampi WBF threads.
 
Also it works on my Audio Note DAC 5 with a passive then to my power amplifier. My DAC has the same line stage and the Audio Note M6 pre-amplifier, just has a digital board added basically.
It is about the integrity of the line stage in the DAC, the amount of current and how low the output impedance is at the DAC. It really needs to be 500K ohms or less. Im my case it is 10 ohms as it has output transformers. Also you need a good passive, shortish interconnects, and NOT use volume at the server as digital volume is notoriously poor.
 
So, never say never......
 
I used to use an Audio Note M3 pre-amplifier (5K) but I get better SQ direct, more speed and transparency, deep bass, soundstage width and depth. A pre-amplifier is generally 'fixing' the impedance mismatch and creating more gain, everything else it is doing is worse than direct. If you have no impedance mismatch and enough gain / current, it can sound better direct IMO.
 
But 90% of DAC won't work for those very reasons.

 

[kennyb123]

I'll never trust anyone who reports that an additional component between DAVE and power amplification in their system sounds better. It means the entire system is sub-optimal.

Some manufacturers of hi-fi deliberately engineer faults into their power amplifiers so that their pre-amps improve the perceived performance.

If on the other hand, you just like colouration, then I dunno, why buy DAVE?

I can only guess these people who like polluting DAVE's output would hate listening to the master tape because it's lacking colouration.

[sarcasm mode on]

And, my gosh, can you believe there are people who go one step further and have the temerity to actually use the DAVE to drive transducers! The most colored components in our systems are our speakers and headphones - and yet there are people who buy a DAVE just to have a suboptimal experience of listening through these things? I can only guess these people who pollute the DAVE this way would hate listening to live performances too.

[/sarcasm mode off]

Measurements of the HD 800S here: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800S.pdf

I think it would be really hard to find a modern preamp that does this much harm to the signal.

 

[jlbrach]

But what is "coloration?" Even at the amp we have coloration. The speaker cables or the headphone cables, the same thing. Neutrality is a skyhook. It doesn't exist. It is something that can be strived for, but even if reached we wouldn't know it.

Other components in the signal path after the DAVE? I think about it. If it's doubtful that we can hear 1% distortion, what does that say for 0.000007% THD+N from the DAVE going into a preamp that has 0.0007% distortion? Is it really a bottleneck that much below what we cannot hear? Even going by the specs, most Chord amps align with what's pretty much become a standard at 0.05%.

But, distortion isn't the whole of it, and I get stuck on those numbers, even though low distortion might have gobs of 3rd order harmonics. The numbers are only a partial path.

What I grapple with is that short of the DAVE's headphone output, there's nothing out there that seems it won't muddy the waters a bit, if it's an amp, a cable, or whatever.

What then does that say for running a Blu2 into DAVE then into several different paths that effect the small signals we so desire? Nothing? Everything? I mean, I really don't know.

I think in general the fewer interconnects the better....I use my Dave straight out of the headphone jack for this very reason.....I will do the same when I receive my Blu 2 to go along with it...the fewer compromises the better IMHO...an amp is necessary when using loudspeakers,at least power hungry loudspeakers....the path straight out of the Dave into my HP seems to me to be the purest......is that necessarily best for everyone?of course not but for me if i am going spend all this money on a Dave and a Blu 2 i want to hear it as transparently as possible....thats just me though!

 

[Articnoise]

[sarcasm mode on]

And, my gosh, can you believe there are people who go one step further and have the temerity to actually use the DAVE to drive transducers! The most colored components in our systems are our speakers and headphones - and yet there are people who buy a DAVE just to have a suboptimal experience of listening through these things? I can only guess these people who pollute the DAVE this way would hate listening to live performances too.

[/sarcasm mode off]

Measurements of the HD 800S here: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800S.pdf

I think it would be really hard to find a modern preamp that does this much harm to the signal.

 

A headphone and a DAC/amp have different kinds of distortion and colorations. With that said yes a SOTA preamp will probably contribute the least of all gear in most setups.