[romaz]

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, Romaz, thanks. With a young baby now I'm not able to listen to my loungeroom hifi much, and am spending much more time in my home office but do tire of headphones listening - it was never really my thing and I much prefer speakers. As you'd know, speaker listening with family around or late at night is challenging, as with the low volumes required dynamics are often lost, and it swiftly becomes pointless to continue. What I was trying to build is a nearfield setup similar to yours, but I do not have a DAVE (only a TT) so was planning to use a small Pass Labs XA30.5 (30 Watts Class A) to run from the TT and drive an appropriate speaker. I was thinking the Omega SAM monitor was a good candidate and stumbled on your posts here doing a search on them. 

I don't have a hugely deep desk. I can pull it out from the wall and standmount speakers behind it, though, which may work. I used to do this with monitors when I was mixing music at home years ago. Or I could get a deeper desk, not sure which way would yield better results. What cabinet dimensions did you settle on? 

So I was thinking of Hugo TT > Pass Labs XA30.5 > Omega SAM's on inert stands.

That should be a very enjoyable near field system, and I can resort to headphones if I must at certain times. I am yet to hear some Utopia's but I would like to, if they have similar qualities to my HE1K's but with the dynamic driver qualities the planars lack.

It's funny you mention the Voxative 9.87's. Paired with high quality SET amps (like their 845's) they are stunningly good speakers. Among the best I've heard, as long as you don't need high SPL bass slam and low end extension (they're rolling off below ~40Hz). They now have an additional supplementary dipole bass 'system' to fix that, however.

Robb Watt's hasn't divulged specifics other than to say what he uses for speakers are an 'old german' pair. But anyone who's gone to Munich high-end or similar, knows what the German's can and have done with 1-way's and horns before, which render mids and treble better than basically everything I've heard elsewhere. Voxative and Cessaro come to mind.

It seems we not only have similar audio sensibilities but also similar life circumstances although instead of a young baby, I have a high school aged son that needs peace and quiet as he studies and a wife who prefers to go to bed much earlier than I do and so for these reasons, my smaller system in my home office gets much more use.

You're in excellent shape with your TT and your XA30.5. According to Louis Chochos, Nelson Pass himself is an Omega customer and whether it be a First Watt or Pass Labs, I believe you will find good synergy with any of the Omegas. These are Louis' preferred solid state amps. Interestingly, they are also Holger Adler's preferred solid state amps for his Voxativs.

You won't need as large a desk as you might imagine to accommodate the Omega Alnicos. If depth or width are an issue, you can go taller if necessary but you will need a minimum of 8 inches of width to fit the Alnico driver into an enclosure. You can opt for one of Omega's smaller ferrite drivers and having owned the smaller Super 3i, I believe you will love them but there is a magical quality to the Alnico magnet that you will not want to miss and so I would suggest you do all you can to accommodate this driver. Audio Note UK incorporates Alnico magnets in their higher end speaker lines beginning at $30k per pair. Voxativ charges $10k for the Alnico option for the 9.87s. To be able to own Alnico drivers for under $2k is unheard of.

The key to maintaining dynamics at low listening levels is a good tuneful subwoofer, not a boomy sub that does one note bass but something fast and tight. Although it isn't advertised, Louis can build you just such a sub using one of his 8 inch drivers for well under $1k that pairs very well with his Alnicos (I used to own one of these) and can provide nice fill down to 28Hz. If you're not heavily into organ music as I am, you may find this sub to be perfectly adequate.

Should you decide one day to move away from your TT and your XA30.5, with the Omega Alnicos, not only can a single DAVE replace them both but I believe you will find that It can do so magnificently.

 

[romaz]

I am still discovering the amazing abilities of the DAVE - One thing that constantly strikes me is its ability to render concerts (with classical indian instruments) as if they were occurring a few metres in front of me. Playing around with the DAVE and connecting it to a PC I had two different circuits and both produced different results. I have read that the DAVE is source neutral so I am struggling to explain the differences and what I can do further.

The two circuits are: 
1) DAVE connected to a laptop running Windows 7 with a lightspeed 10G USB cable.
2) DAVE connected to a PC running Windows 7 with a 5m USB cable sourced locally here (http://www.krispykables.com.au/products/ADL-Formula-2%252dB-USB-2.0-cable.html) connected to an Audeophileo 2 into a BNC input on the DAVE

In 2), I immediately notice a reduction in microdynamics with the recordings sounding more flatter. Its probably minute but enough for me to notice it and hence not enjoy the live concert type music.

In terms of the differences between the two circuits, I am not sure whether it is because of the USB cable or using an Audeophileo which has resulted in the reduction in the SQ. The USB ports on both laptop/PC are equally non Hifi, I cannot really change the USB cable as that's the only 5m one I could find (which is not very costly to just be used as guesswork) and I am not sure whether an additional reclocker such as Wyred4sound or Uptone Regen will fix the problem.

Any thoughts what I need to do next to be able to make Youtube sound like an actual live performance?

Cheers
thunder

It could be a combination of both your 5m USB cable + Audiophilleo but it should be easy enough to find out.

I am currently testing an Audiophilleo 2SE, Audiophilleo 1SE + Pure Power and a customized Audiophilleo 1 SE powered by an LPS1 with my DAVE and while these units are not yet fully broken in, so far, I am underwhelmed. There seems to be a compression effect that makes them sound a bit flat in comparison to USB only. At the same time, there's a good chance you will notice a decline in signal integrity with a 5m USB cable probably due to a combination of factors including impedance mismatch, signal loss, etc. The USB 2.0 spec calls for a maximum cable length of 5 meters due to these reasons and to skirt that maximum length might be ok for laser printers but probably will have some sonic consequences in an audio system.

As a test, do an A/B comparison with your short and long USB cables on your DAVE with one of your computers. If you can't tell any difference between the 2 cables, then you know it's the Audiophilleo that's the problem. If there is a difference and you find that the shorter cable sounds better, then see if your Windows PC has an optical output or else an option to add an optical card. If not, consider replacing your Windows PC with an inexpensive Mac Mini since they all have built in optical outputs and then run a Toslink cable from your Mac Mini to your DAVE. Mapleshades, for example, makes a very good 14 foot optical cable for a little more than $100 and I can verify they work very well at that length. This would further allow you to run both sources without having to swap between 2 different USB cables.

 

[thunder 99]

It could be a combination of both your 5m USB cable + Audiophilleo but it should be easy enough to find out.

I am currently testing an Audiophilleo 2SE, Audiophilleo 1SE + Pure Power and a customized Audiophilleo 1 SE powered by an LPS1 with my DAVE and while these units are not yet fully broken in, so far, I am underwhelmed. There seems to be a compression effect that makes them sound a bit flat in comparison to USB only. At the same time, there's a good chance you will notice a decline in signal integrity with a 5m USB cable probably due to a combination of factors including impedance mismatch, signal loss, etc. The USB 2.0 spec calls for a maximum cable length of 5 meters due to these reasons and to skirt that maximum length might be ok for laser printers but probably will have some sonic consequences in an audio system.

As a test, do an A/B comparison with your short and long USB cables on your DAVE with one of your computers. If you can't tell any difference between the 2 cables, then you know it's the Audiophilleo that's the problem. If there is a difference and you find that the shorter cable sounds better, then see if your Windows PC has an optical output or else an option to add an optical card. If not, consider replacing your Windows PC with an inexpensive Mac Mini since they all have built in optical outputs and then run a Toslink cable from your Mac Mini to your DAVE. Mapleshades, for example, makes a very good 14 foot optical cable for a little more than $100 and I can verify they work very well at that length. This would further allow you to run both sources without having to swap between 2 different USB cables.

Wow that's pretty indepth - Thanks Romaz!
Would adding a reclocker to the 5m USB help at all? Or is the bottleneck the BNC input. I have a Audeophileo 2 but sounds like from what you mentioned adding that into the system is the bottleneck so connecting the Audeophileo in any other way wont help in getting any gains.
Would a $100 optical cable be equal to connecting the DAVE in USB mode which I would really just like to except I dont want to change from one USB to another frequently. The alternative I was thinking was whether a USB adaptor can be used as I would only be using 1 USB input at one time - PC or the Antipodes DX?
Thanks again.
Cheers

 

[halloweenman]

Just to follow up on this. I tried Pure Music and hated it. It sounded very good, when it worked! The user experience is horrible and the software and remote app are littered with bugs. It is also dependent on iTunes.

The good news though is that I also tried a free trial of Roon. Here's what I said in the TT forum:

"Wow, just had a play and listened to free trial of Roon. Absolutely head and shoulders above anything else I have tried for user experience and at least as good if not better for sound quality. Very impressed. Shame it costs so much!

One thing that is great - you can setup so that it outputs true bit perfect 44/16 output to TT when playing 44/16 ALAC files. Audirvana and iTunes apply conversion to 32 bit with TT. It also has internet radio (Hi Def 6 Music here I come!) and a great ios/andriod remote app. All in all perfect for my needs."

Decided not to proceed with purchase of Roon, good as it is the sound quality is no better than Audirvana and I do not need all the extra magazine like info it brings. If it was not so expensive then I would have purchased it.

 

[romaz]

Wow that's pretty indepth - Thanks Romaz!
Would adding a reclocker to the 5m USB help at all? Or is the bottleneck the BNC input. I have a Audeophileo 2 but sounds like from what you mentioned adding that into the system is the bottleneck so connecting the Audeophileo in any other way wont help in getting any gains.
Would a $100 optical cable be equal to connecting the DAVE in USB mode which I would really just like to except I dont want to change from one USB to another frequently. The alternative I was thinking was whether a USB adaptor can be used as I would only be using 1 USB input at one time - PC or the Antipodes DX?
Thanks again.
Cheers

One way to get beyond the 5m limitation is to use a USB hub which would allow you to go another 5m. Such hubs are always powered and are effectively signal regernators. A USB Regen or W4S Recovery is nothing more than a USB hub that utilizes a better clock and linear regulators that make them suitable for audiophile use. Such devices are designed to improve signal integrity and while I have not found either of these devices to be helpful with my DAVE and my much shorter USB cable, they could perhaps prove beneficial with your 5m USB cable but only if you find that your 5m cable sounds worse than your shorter cable. If you have a USB Regen or something similar on hand, give it a go and see what you think.

With the Audiophilleos, these are highly regarded USB to SPDIF converters by many and the SE version was specifically designed with Chord DACs in mind which I think is pretty cool. Whether it's because the units I'm testing aren't yet broken in (which is possible) or whether it's because USB just sounds that much better with the DAVE (Rob has said that USB sounds best, optical sounds 2nd best and digital coax sounds worst), I'm not sure.

With my DAVE and using my Mac Pro, which has both a USB and optical output, and using this 14 foot optical cable against a 1 meter USB cable, they both sounded excellent with USB having a slight edge with regards to clarity and depth. If ultimate SQ is your goal, USB is better than optical but not by much and so I wouldn't hesitate to recommend going down this road for YouTube playback. In fact, I often use my Mac Pro for YouTube playback and my Mac Pro is connected to my DAVE via optical.

Regarding a USB adapter, I can't think of how this could work. If you decide you want to switch between 2 USB sources, definitely make the switch at the source and not at your DAVE. Over time, frequent switching will wear out your connectior and it would be best not to wear out the DAVE's USB connector.

 

[romaz]

Is a wider soundstage indicative of less distortion in amplification, or is it an artefact of less transparency? .

If you mean wider soundstage without increasing depth, in my experience, this is often more due to driver placement. With the HD800, for example, these are known to cast a wide soundstage but not a deep one and most believe it is due to how Sennheiser has angled their drivers. You can accomplish the same thing with speakers by spreading them further apart.

If you're talking about a bigger soundstage overall (width + depth), I think many factors can influence this including how a recording was made, DAC capability, type and quality of amplification, type of speakers and of course, speaker placement. When you hear it due to an amplifier, it is often because of superior dynamics due to a superior power supply. Superior power delivery will usuallly result in a much more open (less confined) sound where you perceive more air around voices and instruments that is often perceived as a larger soundstage. Amplifier design also matters. Tubes amps are known to be more holographic than their transistor counterparts. Tube types can also impact soundstage. Big tubes like 300Bs can sound cavernous compared to small 45s. Certain speaker designs can naturally do this as well. Omnidirectional speakers (MBL), for example, can create this immersive "music is everywhere" sound that gives the illusion of an infinite soundstage but it is at the expense of focus. Of course, you could also alter your soundstage through DSP. DSP can be used to produce pinpoint imaging and focus but it will generally result in a much smaller soundstage.

 

[Jawed]

I'm asking whether adding an amplifier to DAVE, which apparently increases the width of the soundstage (on headphones), is due to a distortion introduced by the amplifier or because DAVE doesn't have enough power and so DAVE has more distortion feeding the headphones than the amplifier feeding the headphones.

In the first case, distortion is making the soundstage seem wider ("distortion is making a fuzzy, wider, soundstage")

In the second case, distortion is making the soundstage seem narrower ("distortion is reducing transparency, making the soundstage seem narrower")

TT stand-alone has a narrower soundstage than DAVE stand-alone. This must be due to distortion, since we know TT is more distorted than DAVE.

So the implication appears to be that DAVE feeding headphones is more distorted than DAVE + amplifier, because the latter has a wider soundstage. It seems that soundstage width can be used as a measure of transparency/distortion.

---

HD 800, according to most comments I've seen, casts a wider and deeper soundstage than Utopia. Both of these headphones use angled drivers. I don't think angling is the reason for the difference.

On the Utopia thread there's at least one comment implying that the pads themselves are the cause of the soundstage being "small" with Utopia.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/811273/focal-utopia-a-little-elear-impressions-and-discussion/1455#post_13072347

After testing larger earpads with bigger openings (including the HD800 earpads on the Utopias), alot of that punchiness goes away and it starts sounding more like a typical open back dynamic. On the flip side the soundstage really opens up too.

 

[phonyx]

OK first Dave and TT are not powering headphones in the typical fashion. They do not have output gain stages like an amplifier. Therefore they don't compress the signal or clip the signal like a normal overdriven amplifier does. The output is clean up until there is no attentuation and your speakers/headphones are seeing the full voltage. Second, TT is not 'more distorted' than DAVE. DAVE is class (world?) leading in terms of low noise floor, low intermodulation distortion and original signal reproduction. The TT come's a moderately close second (you need to A/B it against the DAVE to be like oh, right see the DAVE does have better transient timing etc). In addition, distortion doesn't add to a soundstage, it just muddies everything making it really difficult to determine what is going on. 
 
Soundstage in any studio recorded work is 'painted on' by the engineer. Panning one instrument left and another right, for example. It's fake, and is hard to really judge anything from. If you are listening to something recorded live it's much easier to see a soundstage in your mind (again it's not real, your brain creates it from the audible cues in the sounds received). The more accurate the information received, the more accurately your brain recreates this in your mind. Depth perception is apparently influenced by noise floor and low level signal resolution, and instrument placement left or right/front to back is determined largely by timing of primary sound wave (off the instrument or singer) and subsequent sound wave reflections (from walls, floors etc). From the timing of all these sound waves reaching your ears, your brain determines where the instruments/singers are and other cues like the room you/they're in, the materials the room is made from (reflective like stone, or dull like carpet/plaster etc) or the far lower amplitude of reflections indicating you're in an outdoor venue, for example. All these tiny queues allow your brain to reconstruct the event. So soundstage is a highly complex thing, and that's before you even get to the drivers in your headphones or speakers and how they may be influencing it. 
 
To try and answer your question about adding an amp widening the sound stage, I'd say the amp is adding a colouration or altering transient timings or other queues such that a wider soundstage is perceived. 

 

[Jawed]

Second, TT is not 'more distorted' than DAVE.

Yes it is. Otherwise DAVE wouldn't sound better.

Then you say:

DAVE is class (world?) leading in terms of low noise floor, low intermodulation distortion and original signal reproduction.

So it has lower distortion than TT...

I have A/B'd TT and DAVE:

The TT come's a moderately close second (you need to A/B it against the DAVE to be like oh, right see the DAVE does have better transient timing etc). In addition, distortion doesn't add to a soundstage, it just muddies everything making it really difficult to determine what is going on. 

and DAVE shows wider soundstage.

 

[x RELIC x]

...

So the implication appears to be that DAVE feeding headphones is more distorted than DAVE + amplifier, because the latter has a wider soundstage. It seems that soundstage width can be used as a measure of transparency/distortion.

...

This is directly against what Rob has been saying, and against all logic. You simply can not add another piece of equipment to something and take away distortion, you can only add to it. And yes, the DAVE has less distortion than the TT. I'm not debating what you are hearing, but I'm suggesting that your conclusions are incorrect as to the differences.

 

[phonyx]

Yes it is. Otherwise DAVE wouldn't sound better.
 

 
Ok, fine yes if you want to look at it that 'glass half empty' way. You have a very negative way of phrasing things and I read your statement as you were hearing literal distortion from DAVE (and even more from TT). What I attempted perhaps poorly to say was neither is clipping their outputs when driving headphones (typical distorted sound) or driving full voltage from either RCA or XLR. 
 
But DAVE doesn't just 'sound better' than TT because it's 'less distorted'. There's a lot more to the picture than that, you've chosen a single performance metric (distortion) and without clarifying what kind of distortion (harmonic, intermodulation etc) laid all the ways DAVE sounds better at its feet. It's a rather simplistic view and you're leaving a lot out. 

 

[JaZZ]

I'm pretty sure the larger soundstage provided by some amps is the result of a generally «bigger picture» caused by subtle doses of harmonic distortion. Not least second-order, which also contributes to a stronger, «phatter» bass (according to Rob). I experience it myself to some degree with my amps, but it's identifiable as artificial addition. The larger (particularly deeper) soundstage from the DAVE, on the other hand, is the result of extremely careful signal processing and low modulation noise.

 

[Jawed]

...

So the implication appears to be that DAVE feeding headphones is more distorted than DAVE + amplifier, because the latter has a wider soundstage. It seems that soundstage width can be used as a measure of transparency/distortion.

...

This is directly against what Rob has been saying, and against all logic. You simply can not add another piece of equipment to something and take away distortion, you can only add to it.

Both of these things are facts:

An analogue amplifier has more distortion the louder the output signal.

An analogue amplifier has more distortion driving a load that demands more power.

So, it is possible that DAVE has more distortion driving headphones than an amplifier that is added to DAVE. In the latter scenario, DAVE's distortion is the minimum it can be. In this scenario the amplifier might have less distortion driving those headphones, than if DAVE were to drive those headphones directly.

I'm not saying the add on amplifier will always be less distorted. Merely that a headphone that is hard to drive (defined as a headphone that requires high volume setting and/or a headphone that requires more power) might cause DAVE to be more distorted than if an amplifier was used instead.

DAVE's distortion changes just like any other amplifier depending on how it's used and what it's used with.

 

[rkt31]

@romaz, there is a chesky test track in which a group of musicians take rounds of a single stereo mic. if speakers are not set properly ( toe in ) you can't get the effect of group going behind you. there is only one toe in which gets this effect right . that exact toe in angle will be different for different speakers , different room, different distance between speakers , different distance from walls. with my experience I can say that this exact toe in is independent of amplifier type, source type , music type, cable type, listening position etc etc. when you get that test right , the soundstage width you get is the correct one even if it is not very wide for some sources, amp or dac. if someone feels that the lesser soundstage width of a particular amp, dac or source can be compensated by speaker placement (toe out from the exact toe in ), it will only disturb the depth perception and imaging. ( that chesky test track is for that purpose only )

 

[JaZZ]

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 

 

...

So the implication appears to be that DAVE feeding headphones is more distorted than DAVE + amplifier, because the latter has a wider soundstage. It seems that soundstage width can be used as a measure of transparency/distortion.

...

This is directly against what Rob has been saying, and against all logic. You simply can not add another piece of equipment to something and take away distortion, you can only add to it.

Both of these things are facts:

An analogue amplifier has more distortion the louder the output signal.

An analogue amplifier has more distortion driving a load that demands more power.

So, it is possible that DAVE has more distortion driving headphones than an amplifier that is added to DAVE. In the latter scenario, DAVE's distortion is the minimum it can be. In this scenario the amplifier might have less distortion driving those headphones, than if DAVE were to drive those headphones directly.

I'm not saying the add on amplifier will always be less distorted. Merely that a headphone that is hard to drive (defined as a headphone that requires high volume setting and/or a headphone that requires more power) might cause DAVE to be more distorted than if an amplifier was used instead.

DAVE's distortion changes just like any other amplifier depending on how it's used and what it's used with.

 
Jawed, I think «THD and noise at 2.5 volts RMS 0.000015%» is hard or impossible to beat by any amp, although it's not clear if and to which degree a complex load would raise these figures. But even if we implicate a factor of 10, it's still virtually unachievable.