[ecwl]

Yes, I think we're all waiting for someone to do that and then the speculation will go away.

The bigger problem is Rob seems to report on measurements that he believes are more telling of a DAC's SQ that no one else seems to measure like noise floor modulation or small signal linearity so some consensus needs to be established on what parameters are important and there will probably be disagreements.

Actually, John Atkinson has commented on noise floor modulation in his measurements for Stereophile sometimes although he may be talking about slightly different things than Rob Watts and Hi Fi News and World Report does measure small signal linearity. I think the bigger issue is as Romaz says there is no consensus as to what parameters are important and at what level. Meaning: 1) is dynamic range important sonically (almost definitely)... 2) At what level of measurement does dynamic range not matter for a DAC (>100dB, >110dB, >120dB?) As I said earlier, because I like the sound of Chord DACs more than others, I trust Rob Watts as to what measurement parameters are important and I trust his assessment as to what level the measurement parameters need to achieve before there is no point in improving the measurement. One nagging thought I had is that maybe different people truly hear differently. So that means people who prefer MSB Select II may prefer higher dynamic range and people who prefer Chord DAVE may prefer lower noise floor modulation and better low level signal linearity. I suspect this theory is not true and there are universal measurement criteria that matter and it just comes down to training our ears to hear and compare Hi-Fi sound to live music. But I'm really not sure.

 

[Mavwong]

I would say it the same way well said!
 
 
 
Quote:

  I know MSB had to construct their own measuring tools as the commercial ones were not able to measure to the levels required. A lot of talk on here re the DAVE vs the Select, at the end of the day manufacturers can argue all they want about measurements, me (and I own a Select) I couldn't care less how it measures, only thing I am interested in is how the damn thing sounds. I have noticed that I am listening to a LOT more music nowadays than I have been over the past 12 months. Oh and I think it looks sexy too, so does the DAVE in Black with its stand, very nice 

 

 

[drdkey]

You are spot on that there are several practical considerations! I do use SAM and it is a great feature. The Devialet is a great system but Devialet AIR has worked so inconsistently (damn frustrating) and there doesn't seem to be a real solution to the problem. The company seems to care more about Phantom/Spark and its development. Since I am currently demoing an Aurender N10 on my system, this is a great time to take a step back and see if it is a time for a change. Yes, changing to the Chord DAVE will cost me more up front, but in the long run it may be a better long term investment. I clearly need to hear the DAVE on my set up.
I read the rest of the thread this morning and I was especially interested in the comments on DR and the effect of the amplifier on the DAC. What amplifier would you suggest with the DAVE?

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

You are spot on that there are several practical considerations! I do use SAM and it is a great feature. The Devialet is a great system but Devialet AIR has worked so inconsistently (damn frustrating) and there doesn't seem to be a real solution to the problem. The company seems to care more about Phantom/Spark and its development. Since I am currently demoing an Aurender N10 on my system, this is a great time to take a step back and see if it is a time for a change. Yes, changing to the Chord DAVE will cost me more up front, but in the long run it may be a better long term investment. I clearly need to hear the DAVE on my set up.
I read the rest of the thread this morning and I was especially interested in the comments on DR and the effect of the amplifier on the DAC. What amplifier would you suggest with the DAVE?

 
Hi drdkey
 
If you have the patience... I would wait for Rob Watts' digital power amp to combine it with DAVE.

 

[romaz]

 1) is dynamic range important sonically (almost definitely)...

One nagging thought I had is that maybe different people truly hear differently. So that means people who prefer MSB Select II may prefer higher dynamic range...

 

I don't think anyone questions the importance of DR, it's just that beyond a certain threshold, it becomes meaningless.   As Rob has stated more than a few times, DR as a reported measurement for a DAC is misunderstood, and until recently, I misunderstood it as well.  I used to look at it as how loud or dynamically a DAC can play when it's really more a reflection of a DAC's residual noise or as Rob calls it "hiss."  Now if you look at DR in this proper context, then no one would ever prefer something like a Select II based on DR because even if the Select II truly has a DR of 170dB, there would be no practical audible difference against the DAVE, even if you connected your headphone to the Select II "direct to DAC."
 
Rob has already reported that the residual noise of the DAVE is 2.6µV which is a value of hiss that could possibly be heard only through ultra sensitive IEMs which is not likely to be how most people would listen to their DAVE (or their Select II).  Through your typical headphone and especially through speakers, according to Rob, this level of hiss should be inaudible.  If a manufacturer creates a DAC with an even better DR equating to an even lower residual noise value than 2.6µV, it sounds good in theory but what's the point if 2.6µV is already inaudible for the headphone or speakers you are using?
 
Obviously, this is all purely academic and at the end of the day, it's about enjoying your music, but as I have seen the DAVE criticized on another thread here on Head-Fi for having such a pedestrian DR compared to the superior DR of their DAC, I believe it's important for those contemplating the purchase of a new DAC to understand which parameters are meaningful and which parameters are not.

 

[Beolab]

Yes, I think we're all waiting for someone to do that and then the speculation will go away.

The bigger problem is Rob seems to report on measurements that he believes are more telling of a DAC's SQ that no one else seems to measure like noise floor modulation or small signal linearity so some consensus needs to be established on what parameters are important and there will probably be disagreements.

Yes if the Audio manufactures had a originasation where they have agreed in more standardised values on how to wright out the mesaurments that matters the most for the sound, would have been great, but that will most likely not happen in the near future..

OT

I ordered the DHC Silver Comp 4 , 7 ft XLR Valab Carbon plugs and the Silver Comp 4 adapter / DHC 3D Adapter from Peter today.

Thanks for the recommendation Roy and Simon!

Will compare them to the JPS Labs SC when i receive them in april, and from what i have read i think the DHC Comp 4 will suite my preferences better than the SC.

 

[lovethatsound]

I really think when the select II gets it's measurements taken by the same test machine,doing all the tests that the Dave has done,that the measurements won't be as good as Daves.Rob Watts has already said that the Dave has got the best measurements of any Dac in the world today,personal i believe him.

 

[romaz]

 
You are spot on that there are several practical considerations! I do use SAM and it is a great feature. The Devialet is a great system but Devialet AIR has worked so inconsistently (damn frustrating) and there doesn't seem to be a real solution to the problem. The company seems to care more about Phantom/Spark and its development. Since I am currently demoing an Aurender N10 on my system, this is a great time to take a step back and see if it is a time for a change. Yes, changing to the Chord DAVE will cost me more up front, but in the long run it may be a better long term investment. I clearly need to hear the DAVE on my set up.
I read the rest of the thread this morning and I was especially interested in the comments on DR and the effect of the amplifier on the DAC. What amplifier would you suggest with the DAVE?

If you are targeting an expensive music server like an Aurender N10 to pair with your Devialet, then buying a Chord DAVE instead may not be a giant financial stretch considering you can pair it with the Mac you already own or something inexpensive like a Sonos and almost certainly end up with better SQ than what you would get from any Aurender paired with the Texas Instruments DAC in your Devialet. While you give up a bit of convenience should you decide to leave your Devialet, because the DAVE already has an excellent digital preamp, the only thing you would really be adding to your setup with a DAVE would be a pair of analog interconnects along with a separate speaker amp. You will have to decide if the convenience of the Devialet along with some of its proprietary features like SAM outweigh the benefits you would get with the DAVE and so I would agree, you would have to be able to compare the DAVE in your system and directly against your Devialet to know for sure.  If it makes you feel any better, many of us have, in fact, done exactly what you are contemplating and while I can only speak for myself, the hassles involved have indeed been worthwhile.  
 
I would agree with Jazz, if you have the patience, you would be hard pressed to do better than the upcoming digital amps that Rob will be designing for the DAVE, however, having spoken to John Franks at CanJam yesterday, he told me the 20 watt amp is probably a year away with the other amps more realistically being 2 years away (although its possible that it is his nature to under promise and over deliver).  

 

[Kakki]

 
I would agree with Jazz, if you have the patience, you would be hard pressed to do better than the upcoming digital amps that Rob will be designing for the DAVE, however, having spoken to John Franks at CanJam yesterday, he told me the 20 watt amp is probably a year away with the other amps more realistically being 2 years away (although its possible that it is his nature to under promise and over deliver).  

 
A year from now...!?
 
Quite shocking ... but will try to wait calmly until Rob thinks it's good enough to be released to the market...

 

[isquirrel]

Yes if the Audio manufactures had a originasation where they have agreed in more standardised values on how to wright out the mesaurments that matters the most for the sound, would have been great, but that will most likely not happen in the near future..

OT

I ordered the DHC Silver Comp 4 , 7 ft XLR Valab Carbon plugs and the Silver Comp 4 adapter / DHC 3D Adapter from Peter today.

Thanks for the recommendation Roy and Simon!

Will compare them to the JPS Labs SC when i receive them in april, and from what i have read i think the DHC Comp 4 will suite my preferences better than the SC.

I found the SC to be a similar sound to the stock cable, smoother, but in doing so it lost some of the stock cables dynamics. I found the DHC Spore 4 Silver to be much more transparemt, free of grain, which is what started my cable search. One of the other factors the I particularly enjoyed was the feeling of bass note pressure building before the note struck. In particular the Spore 4 seemed to counter-act the U shaped sound which is part of the Abyss's sonic traits. IN order to use the adapters its best to order the for fitment to suit the HE-1000. IN other words a 2.5MM plug. I can report no issues with the adapters tension even after a 6 month operating time.

 

[Beolab]

I found the SC to be a similar sound to the stock cable, smoother, but in doing so it lost some of the stock cables dynamics. I found the DHC Spore 4 Silver to be much more transparemt, free of grain, which is what started my cable search. One of the other factors the I particularly enjoyed was the feeling of bass note pressure building before the note struck. In particular the Spore 4 seemed to counter-act the U shaped sound which is part of the Abyss's sonic traits. IN order to use the adapters its best to order the for fitment to suit the HE-1000. IN other words a 2.5MM plug. I can report no issues with the adapters tension even after a 6 month operating time.

Thanks Simon!

Yes the SC is to thick and try to hide the grain in the more buttery warmth sound, so i have gone back to the Stock, which i like more for my taste, but as you mention, very grainy and i find almost small distortion peaks / glitches in tone overlaps , which i dont like. And the bass need to be more pronounced and controlled with greater impact which i find goes away on higher levels.

I unfortenatly ordered it in Grey Charcoal the dual Valab 3pin XLR - Mini 3pin XLR , incl the 3 pin XLR - 1/4 inch silver comp4 adapter and the XLR - 1/4 inch 3D Shaved Adapter.

In what position of do you find the earpads sounding the best if the stock center is about 3 o'clock ?

So next update is the Source. I have a Aurender W20 on loan, and you are using the N10 or? What is your impression out of the two?


Back to DAVE

 

[JaZZ]

Future new Chord products
 
1.  A series of digital amps designed especially for the connection to DAVE, beginning with a 20 watts model, is already confirmed and planned to be released in a year or so.
 
2.  Not decided yet, but likely is a variant specifically for driving demanding headphones, including outputs with bias voltage for electrostatic headphones.
 
3.  A new digital preamp one step below DAVE and one step above the Hugo TT. It will have a WTA filter with 56,000 taps (thus between Hugo and DAVE) and be battery driven. The reduction of the tap number serves for reducing current consumption and heat development and enabling portability in the first place. It will have almost the same modulation noise suppression as DAVE.
We all know that Rob Watts uses to carry his DAVE around on his travels from hotel to hotel, so a considerably more lightweight model with virtually identical sound quality is a logical move. Portable not in the narrower sense, though.
 
4.  Of lesser priority (but I guess Chord shouldn't wait too long with the release not to miss the wave initiated by the Hugo and proceeded by the Mojo): a portable audio player of the size and with the technique of the Mojo. As expectable from the English company, it will have a somewhat exceptional UI, which will nevertheless be highly intuitive – and probably (hopefully) perfect from the start. This is certainly a device many of us have been waiting for. The bad news is that its output power is only 48% of the Mojo's – in the interest of lower power consumption and battery life. Now with the intended purpose – outdoor use – it will most likely be used for driving IEMs with their relatively high efficiency.
 

---

 
Caveat:  With the exception of point 1 the above is pure speculation from my part. But posting it ten days later would have made it too obvious.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

5) New ADC single or double channel solution for pro-studios

6) Upgrades to sampling capability and possibly more for Chord Red Ref and Blu transports

It's a busy time for Chord that's for sure Jazz

Regarding the Dave and my overall system sound I have made some meaningful acoustic changes to my room recently and I continue to be surprised by how good this DAC is. Particularly so in how it presents classical music through the Sonus Faber Olympica's. I am trying to be objective but it is producing a believable performance in my room. Such is the quality that I feel privileged to experience this level of musical communication. Lucky indeed.

.....and all from just Red Book

 

[JaZZ]

Yeah, I forgot the ADC. A fascinating product which I pin quite some hopes on. On the other hand, it will take at least 2½ years till we'll get to hear (and buy) the first few recordings made with it, and those will still represent a tiny fraction of my music collection – if the music is to my liking at all (I'm not so much into mainstream independent of the genre). Also, there will be much more time needed till it's used for a majority of the recordings (which hopefully will happen one day).
 
Has anybody experimented with the HF filter? Upon Rob's recommendation I had left it on, but out of curiosity turned it off on several occasions. Sometimes the music sounds more interesting that way, a bit sharper (nor necessarily in a negative sense), but most of the time I prefer the smoother sound with engaged filter, particualrly with classical music. The effect is very small, though. I probably wouldn't notice if it was off by mistake.

 

[isquirrel]

Thanks Simon!

Yes the SC is to thick and try to hide the grain in the more buttery warmth sound, so i have gone back to the Stock, which i like more for my taste, but as you mention, very grainy and i find almost small distortion peaks / glitches in tone overlaps , which i dont like. And the bass need to be more pronounced and controlled with greater impact which i find go away on higher levels.

I unfortenatly ordered it in Grey Charcoal the dual Valab 3pin XLR - Mini 3pin XLR , incl the 3 pin XLR - 1/4 inch silver comp4 adapter and the XLR - 1/4 inch 3D Shaved Adapter.

In what position of do you find the earpads sounding the best if the stock center is about 3 o'clock ?

So next update is the Source. I have a Aurender N20 on loan, and you are using the N10 or? What is your impression out of the two?


Back to DAVE

You are welcome, I would get onto Peter asap and tell him you wish to change the order so that you can use adapters, tell him you want cables like Simon & Roy's. He won't have an issue changing the order as he is always flexible. HIs number is +1 (405) 808-6075 or peter@doublehelixcables.com, he prefers texts to phone calls.
 
I have attached a photo of here I have the ear pads, but I have found that to get the best out of them (in other words being totally OCD) I do change the distance and toe in depending on the style of music, for EDM, anything with a lot of bass that you want to maximise you would have less toe in and the ear pads further away. For more intimate recordings (buy a HE-1000 or LCD-) you would bring the ear pads closer and toe them in more. You never want them pushed against your face to make a seal. You must always leave an air gap around them so they are not touching the sides of your head.
 


Re the source, I owned the Antipodes DX 2TB SSD, the CAD CAT (latest version) and the Aurender W20, the CAT beat the Antipodes (hands down), the Aurender is clearly better than the other two, much more refined - BUT I wanted the W20 primarily so I could use the external Word Clock function other wise I would have bought the N10. There is no external word clock function on the DAVE as apparently it is source agnostic, which in my experience is accurate to an extent (even though both I and my partner heard a difference it was to be sure a subtle difference) and only an OCD person like me would bother spending the extra money. I like AES and I have found that where its available on a DAC and I use it I get good results, it was the same with the Nagra, Kalliope etc. I accept that especially on this forum my views are probably contrary to some people.
 
My advice (for what its worth) would be try it and see what you like. Make sure you use decent AES cables, its worth trying S/PDIF as well. The beauty of the Aurender N10 or W20 is they are like a swiss army knife and have pretty much every connection apart from I2S. A warning re Digital Cables. I read over on WBF that an audio engineering company has tested a variety of digital cables impedance. Some of the cables were expensive and one was as low as 45 ohms impedance. I find the AES connection gives me more air, I am sure that someone will pop up and tell me I am hearing artefacts or something, I don't mind, it sounds better to me.
 
P.S. I should mention that the Antipodes has recently been upgraded, so the one I had is probably not representative of what's available today. The build quality of the Aurender is superb, I have Roy to thank for pushing me in that direction. I have a 4 week old W20 12TB for sale, if anyones interested, send me a PM. You won't buy it cheaper.