[Zlivan]

Yeah, I get it, but they seem to have gotten more ambitious, prices are going up, that should imply some more effort put into their products.

The idea of changing the sound on-the-fly and shafting the customers who bought inferior iterations is wrong to say the least. Unless they offer to replace older units with improved ones, which I seriously doubt will happen.

Well, I wasn't gonna buy any new KZs anyway, and I certanly will not get anything from TRN now that I've seen comments from their "beta-tester".

I'm not going to elaborate this to oblivion, but that doesn't sound like a good way of doing business...

P.S. I don't think I'm the only one thinking like this. I've seen Igor disagreeing with changes as he already ordered unaltered TRN V60, and then asked if he could get the new one for free.
People who pay for their toys will not be happy, I guess, and those who get free samples may not care too much.

 

[Otto Motor]

KZ have been changing tuning and whole interiors tacitly all along. For example, Head-Fier Coil dissected the ATE generations. We have also discussed KZ's policy of issuing tons of earphone models - the majority seems to like it.

I regretted ordering the TRN V60 the minute I learnt of their design "lift" and before the first sound reports came in here.

 

[manukmanohar]

Yeah, I get it, but they seem to have gotten more ambitious, prices are going up, that should imply some more effort put into their products.

The idea of changing the sound on-the-fly and shafting the customers who bought inferior iterations is wrong to say the least. Unless they offer to replace older units with improved ones, which I seriously doubt will happen.

Well, I wasn't gonna buy any new KZs anyway, and I certanly will not get anything from TRN now that I've seen comments from their "beta-tester".

I'm not going to elaborate this to oblivion, but that doesn't sound like a good way of doing business...

P.S. I don't think I'm the only one thinking like this. I've seen Igor disagreeing with changes as he already ordered unaltered TRN V60, and then asked if he could get the new one for free.
People who pay for their toys will not be happy, I guess, and those who get free samples may not care too much.

It is indeed sad, and makes me want to avoid brands who do this.

 

[Zerohour88]

Unless some solid proof on the ZS10 revision comes out, not gonna put much faith in that. On one hand, they've got many models coming up that going back on an older model and tweaking it doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if its their only planned flagship model, it is plausible if they want to keep marketing it (after rumors of the 12 driver model, not so sure). Again, waiting for to someone make a comparison on the old and supposed revision.

I would imagine KZ not wanting to screw up and create another ZS5v2 situation (where they made things worse). Then again, who knows. Waiting on comparisons if there is one.

TRN, supposedly came from former KZ employees, so the revision thing isn't surprising. Calling the attempts at making their botched product release "crude" is quite something though.

 

[Otto Motor]

Unless some solid proof on the ZS10 revision comes out, not gonna put much faith in that.

I am not religious either!

 

[Slater]

On one hand, they've got many models coming up that going back on an older model and tweaking it doesn't make sense.

Actually, they do just that all of the time.

The ATR, despite being a few years old, was recently updated with a new/different driver. They also literally just tweaked the shell of the EDR1, which is one of the their oldest IEMs (years old, yet still in active production).

So yeah, KZ is continually tweaking, changing, improving, modifying models based on feedback and whatnot (which angers a lot of people too BTW). So there's pros and cons.

 

[Zerohour88]

Actually, they do just that all of the time.

The ATR, despite being a few years old, was recently updated with a new/different driver. They also literally just tweaked the shell of the EDR1, which is one of the their oldest IEMs (years old, yet still in active production).

So yeah, KZ is continually tweaking, changing, improving, modifying models based on feedback and whatnot (which angers a lot of people too BTW). So there's pros and cons.

I guess the reason for such anger is no mention of these revisions rather than the revisions themselves

also, driver changes on the cheap models might be them running out of the old drivers used and just cramming whatever driver they're producing right (or bought in bulk due to usage in newer models). Not that I'm saying its impossible for them to consciously tweak them, its just seems such a waste of resource, again, with their current craze of releasing models every other month.

 

[Slater]

I guess the reason for such anger is no mention of these revisions rather than the revisions themselves

also, driver changes on the cheap models might be them running out of the old drivers used and just cramming whatever driver they're producing right (or bought in bulk due to usage in newer models). Not that I'm saying its impossible for them to consciously tweak them, its just seems such a waste of resource, again, with their current craze of releasing models every other month.

Car manufacturers do this all of the time. Car manufacturers usually keep models for about 5 years before they are totally redesigned.

For 2019, Toyota is releasing a brand new totally redesigned RAV4 (let's call it code name alpha). And let's assume hypothetically Toyota won't completely redesign the RAV4 AGAIN until 2024 (code name beta).

Well, they aren't going to keep it 100% exactly the same for 2019 - 2023.

• Perhaps in 2020 they will change the seat fabric, offer different wheels, and add a roof rack and fog lights.
• For 2021 they will add +10 more horsepower to the engine, and tweak the anti-sway bars in the suspension based on owner feedback regarding handling.
• Then in 2022 and 2023 (despite the alpha platform being now 3 years old), Toyota will do what's known as a "model refresh", adding a redesigned front bumper, redesigned headlights and taillights, adding 2 new paint colors, and deleting 2 previous colors.

Then FINALLY, in 2024 they will release the next "all new totally redesigned" model.

So you see, minor tweaks and improvements along the way are done by more companies than just KZ. Why do they do this? Sure, it could be because parts are no longer available. In my hypothetical RAV4 example, who knows they may have added the 2 new paint colors & deleted the 2 previous colors because their paint supplier no longer made certain paint colors any more, forcing Toyota to pick 2 new colors. Just like you are saying that maybe KZ ran out of the original ATR drivers, so they were forced to use different drivers (in the ATR's case, KZ is using ATE v5 drivers).

Sure, the reason for tweaks and changes varies, but in general, changes to most products is generally done with the intention of making improvements, not making things worse. Some believe the ZS5 v2 is worse than the ZS5 v1, but others feel it was actually better in many ways. It laid the foundation for the ZS6 in fact, which is regarded by many as one of the best (if not the best) IEM KZ has ever made to date.

 

[Bartig]

Car manufacturers do this all of the time. Car manufacturers usually keep models for about 5 years before they are totally redesigned.

For 2019, Toyota is releasing a brand new totally redesigned RAV4 (let's call it code name alpha). And let's assume hypothetically Toyota won't completely redesign the RAV4 AGAIN until 2024 (code name beta).

Well, they aren't going to keep it 100% exactly the same for 2019 - 2023.

• Perhaps in 2020 they will change the seat fabric, offer different wheels, and add a roof rack and fog lights.
• For 2021 they will add +10 more horsepower to the engine, and tweak the anti-sway bars in the suspension based on owner feedback regarding handling.
• Then in 2022 and 2023 (despite the alpha platform being now 3 years old), Toyota will do what's known as a "model refresh", adding a redesigned front bumper, redesigned headlights and taillights, adding 2 new paint colors, and deleting 2 previous colors.

Then FINALLY, in 2024 they will release the next "all new totally redesigned" model.

So you see, minor tweaks and improvements along the way are done by more companies than just KZ. Why do they do this? Sure, it could be because parts are no longer available. In my hypothetical RAV4 example, who knows they may have added the 2 new paint colors & deleted the 2 previous colors because their paint supplier no longer made certain paint colors any more, forcing Toyota to pick 2 new colors. Just like you are saying that maybe KZ ran out of the original ATR drivers, so they were forced to use different drivers (in the ATR's case, KZ is using ATE v5 drivers).

Sure, the reason for tweaks and changes varies, but in general, changes to most products is generally done with the intention of making improvements, not making things worse. Some believe the ZS5 v2 is worse than the ZS5 v1, but others feel it was actually better in many ways. It laid the foundation for the ZS6 in fact, which is regarded by many as one of the best (if not the best) IEM KZ has ever made to date.

Good analogy. It’s not just to improve product quality though - it’s also to decrease manufacturing costs...

 

[Zlivan]

Yeah, but there's a difference in updated models and unannounced changes of existing ones.

I bet you wouldn't like to receive your car with 4 instead of 5 gears (for those who know how to drive stick) that you expected. Or maybe you'd be thrilled to have 6 gears, but the customer that bought that same car a month ago with 5 wouldn't. Or maybe one of the wheels got a bit smaller while "tweaking" and you end up feeling kinda funny while driving.

Sure, mistakes are made by much bigger companies, a lot of the times knowingly because there are multitude of units already in production, but that doesn't mean it's ok. Yeah, sure, they lose money if they recall flawed products or compensate customers, but it's their problem really.

We don't feel cheated much because it's just a set of cheap earphones and you don't really know what to expect in the first place (I don't consider info like "heavy bass clear music fill your head with ecstasy" beneficial), but it's bad anyway.

 

[Slater]

Yeah, but there's a difference in updated models and unannounced changes of existing ones.

I bet you wouldn't like to receive your car with 4 instead of 5 gears (for those who know how to drive stick) that you expected. Or maybe you'd be thrilled to have 6 gears, but the customer that bought that same car a month ago with 5 wouldn't. Or maybe one of the wheels got a bit smaller while "tweaking" and you end up feeling kinda funny while driving.

Sure, mistakes are made by much bigger companies, a lot of the times knowingly because there are multitude of units already in production, but that doesn't mean it's ok. Yeah, sure, they lose money if they recall flawed products or compensate customers, but it's their problem really.

We don't feel cheated much because it's just a set of cheap earphones and you don't really know what to expect in the first place (I don't consider info like "heavy bass clear music fill your head with ecstasy" beneficial), but it's bad anyway.

Again, back to the car analogy. The manufacturers revise hundreds of individual parts on every car (on a continuous basis), including the one you are driving right now, due to different reasons - all without ever telling the owners a single word.

Hyundai just recently updated the oil filter part on 1 of my cars, due to an issue they were having (something like defective filter media). They aren't going to add that to the marketing brochures in the showroom or on the product website. They just quietly make the change and move on. And owners will start receiving the new version of the oil filter upon their next oil change without ever knowing it. They also revise the ECU firmware all of the time, and you just get the new firmware when you go in for service (whether you are even aware of it or not).

Heck, xduoo quietly changed the battery in the X3 from a 1500mAh to a 2000mAh without telling anyone. The only way to know was to open it up and see what battery you had.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying it's right or encouraged, but rather that KZ isn't the only company that does it. The issue is that repeated practices like this typically erode consumer trust/confidence and ultimately a company's credibility in the eyes its customers.

Trust me, if I was to order a spare pair of ATR right now (expecting it to sound like the ATRs I already own), and it arrived sounding totally different due to an unannounced driver change, I wouldn't be too pleased. I could have just kept listening to my ATE, since it sounds the same as the revised ATR.

A lot of ZS5 owners (including me) were not pleased when they ordered the ZS5 expecting to get the v1, only to receive the v2 instead. Just like I was not happy when I ordered a ZS1 (expecting it to be a v1 with crossover and brass ring), and it turned out to be the revised ZS1 v2 that deleted those awesome features.

Like you said, I felt cheated in both cases (the ZS5 and the ZS1). But other times, these changes do work to the customer's advantage. I'm sure the xduoo X3 owners who received the larger battery were happy (even if they unaware there was even 2 batteries). Or the Hyundai owners that aren't driving around with the defective oil filter (even if they were unaware there was even 2 filters). Or the Toyota owners who don't have to worry about their airbag blowing up in their face (even if they were unaware there was even defective airbags to begin with).

The door does swing both ways...

BTW, I think not having an official website really hurts KZ, and it's just plain ludicrous for a multi-million dollar company that cranks out consumer products not to have one in 2018. The website would be the perfect place to publicize revsions (in addition to a million other things). Just like when apps or computer programs are updated, companies list in a changelog what is different. But without a website, KZ has no way to let people know anything. We as an audiophile community shouldn't have to do our own teardowns and reverse engineering to find out something has changed. And we shouldn't have to rely on sites like phonograph and HillAudio's Facebook to know about new stuff coming up. That's what a company's marketing department should be using its website for.

 

[zazaboy]

Is the claims that KZ zs10 v2 true or not?

 

[zazaboy]

And since when? Did they chance it

 

[Zerohour88]

The door does swing both ways...

BTW, I think not having an official website really hurts KZ, and it's just plain ludicrous for a multi-million dollar company that cranks out consumer products not to have one in 2018. The website would be the perfect place to publicize revsions (in addition to a million other things). Just like when apps or computer programs are updated, companies list in a changelog what is different. But without a website, KZ has no way to let people know anything. We as an audiophile community shouldn't have to do our own teardowns and reverse engineering to find out something has changed. And we shouldn't have to rely on sites like phonograph and HillAudio's Facebook to know about new stuff coming up. That's what a company's marketing department should be using its website for.

I do believe that there's no ill-intent regarding the revisions made (as they say, road to hell is paved with good intentions). Seems a bit manic. I do like if its a chaos of new models, but a chaos of revisions is too confusing to enjoy.

Heck, I don't even know if the KZ weibo I found the other was the official one. They should at least have a page there. The official Tmall store still showing a teaser pic for a 10 driver IEM, with something that looked like the ZS6, no idea if its old or new, maybe its the ZS10 and they didn't bother changing it until they have something else to announce.

one more curious thing is that someone theorized that the coming KZ ED16 isn't exactly official from KZ, since it still hasn't showed up on their official Tmall store. A few sellers included DIY in the title, though that's not saying much.

also, cross-posting this from the sub-$100 thread, 3 new cheap Magaosi models for people itching to spend:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bes...-reference-list.805930/page-736#post-14262792

 

[mbwilson111]

(in the ATR's case, KZ is using ATE v5 drivers).

I bought my ATR recently. If mine has the ATEv5 drivers, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Were they better when they had their own unique driver?