[Whitigir]

Lol... Dinosaur in mandarin is "Kong-Long"...

Thanks! And Andy Kong is Kong Long to me

 

[jmills8]

I thought if this was the N8, without NuTube in SE restrictions, it is a WIN! A huge WIN for a Line Out source too!! But....change of plan

On another hand, I already have a Balanced Korg, push-pull design, with Line out, choice of solid state or Korg, powerful amplifications....etc...etc...and that is the Shanling M30. The Korg tubes on the M30 still sounds classy and tubes like IMO, even when compared to C9. It depends on preferences, but I would say that the C9 sounds like a modern Tubes signatures rather than being classy.

That means the M30 sounds as one would expect from the typical tubes, warmth, liquid, dense, and emotional, where as the C9 sounds quick, decisive, clean, great staging, with a slight touch of tubes density within the timbres, and with Class A, the C9 has a bit more warmth and bloom to it outcomes, still, when compared to the M30, the M30 sounds more of a classy and typical tubes.

Oh, and I can still use the Korg with Line Out on the M30 ! So, change of plans!

Well the N8 tubes do sound tuby.

 

[Andykong]

Do you mind explaining to us on what is the purpose of using nutubes / what do they bring to the N8ii amplification stage?
Since tubes are usually introduced to bring the tube-ish flavour into the sound, however since that is not the purpose of the nutubes in the N8ii, won’t you be able to get your end sound with just the SS amplification?

Nutube is an indispensible part of N8ii audio tuning. The tube magic is still there. We said it is not as tubey as N8, that does not mean N8ii is wasting the Nutube. WE cannot achieve the current sound signature with a purely Solid Sate circuit.

In fact, there has always been TWO different camp among vaccum tube users.

Approach 1:
The amplifeir is only a vacuum tube socket with gain, the most important value of the amplifier is to allow user to appreciate the sound signature of the vacuum tube.

Approach 2:
The amplifier is a part of a sound system, we need to use whatever means to design a high quality amplifier to serve its purpose in a sound system. Vacumm Tube is the best mean to achieve that.

Users prefer Approach 1 will always ask the question: can I hear the different when I swap this tube with that tube, so they enjoy tube rolling, and some of them become a tube collectors.

Users prefer Approach 2 wil pay attention to the final sound performance, this is the growing number in the audiophile hobby. Modern tube amplifiers are very transparant, dynamic, and fast when compare to the tube amplfiers in 2-3 decades ago.

 

[Andykong]

Thanks for the reply. I guess I am really thinking from a simple customer viewpoint: If I am buying a tube dap, I want to hear tube sound.

This is especially true if I am being charged a premium for the tube feature. N8ii is not cheap in any way.

N8ii is not expensive because of nutube. I cannot agree with your assumption.

If you heard N8ii and you can't hear the tube magic, then don't buy it.

 

[bluestorm1992]

N8ii is not expensive because of nutube. I cannot agree with your assumption.

If you heard N8ii and you can't hear the tube magic, then don't buy it.

Then I am curious to see what justifies its price tag compared to other TOTL daps.

At $3500, it’d better have special selling points (such as tube), or it delivers superior sound quality that beats many other TOTL daps

 

[Z_Showmaster]

Well the N8 tubes do sound tuby.

So do the N8ii tubes.

it delivers superior sound quality that beats many other TOTL daps

It does.

 

[Andykong]

Have to agree with @bluestorm1992 here. In the run up to the release, the excitement was whipped up on the basis that this was the beloved N8 (with a wonderful nutube output implementation) with the strictures of SE output being lifted. And it is able to stream to boot. Hence, perhaps expectations could have better managed if the N8ii was deliberately planned, for some arcane reason, to use nutube but not sound like tube. Because nothing in the N8 nor the C9 prepared anyone for this.

If you have audition N8 and C9, y ou probably will notice N8 is more "tubey" that C9.

We have explained our Nutube implementation with the following statement:

To certain extend, Zero Gain Negative Feedback Loop is not a design that is preferred by typical tube enthusiasts because this offers less tube flavor relatively. However, we believe this is more in line with the market preference as portable DAP users tend to appreciate transparent, crispy and well-defined presentation with faster transient. In our opinion, there is no right and wrong on these issues. Vacuum tube is the mean, not the end, therefore maximizing tube flavor is not necessary the most important objective. It’s our duty, as a vendor, to understand the market we serve and to provide options different needs of the bigger crowd.

If you have read this correclty, can you suggest how "could have better managed" regarding your "expectation?

 

[Kiats]

So do the N8ii tubes.

hmm… “modern” tube sound then, I assume. Since it is not close to the N8 that some like @Whitigir had expected. I recall @hshock76 had pretty said the same thing post his demo at Zepp.

 

[bluestorm1992]

Also, I am still not getting the logic of making a tube dap that by design does not have a salient tube sound.

I can let this slide if it is a relatively affordable dap, but given its high price tag and the difficultly to audition it in the US (as the show is over), it is really risky for people to blind buy it.

 

[Andykong]

Then I am curious to see what justifies its price tag compared to other TOTL daps.

At $3500, it’d better have special selling points (such as tube), or it delivers superior sound quality that beats many other TOTL daps

I can't see any reason to cast this doubt when you haven't heard the N8ii in person. Because our previous product has failed to deliver audio performance at the price pont we ask for? If we have proved ourselves with track record, shouldn't there be at least benefit of doubt before you heard N8ii in person?

 

[Kiats]

If you have audition N8 and C9, y ou probably will notice N8 is more "tubey" that C9.

Yes, I know. I owned the N8 from date of launch until a few months back. And I still have the C9.

 

[Z_Showmaster]

Guys, following the current train of this conversation: we're talking about "having tube sound". We're not talking about having a warm sound.

Because for those who think a tube always has to be warm, man... I've got to get you a listen to some Shuguang CV181s.

 

[Andykong]

Also, I am still not getting the logic of making a tube dap that by design does not have a salient tube sound.

I can let this slide if it is a relatively affordable dap, but given its high price tag and the difficultly to audition it in the US (as the show is over), it is really risky for people to blind buy it.

Dear friend, I think you have misunderstood our design completely. We didn't say N8ii does hot have tube sound. The tube magic is there, we provide a tube/Solid state switch so that users can choose their preference. If we are not confident that the tube sound makes the different, why would we do that?

However, we just don't agree that tube is the only value of N8ii. We firmly believe there are situation that users wil prefer Solid State option. It can be a synergy with certain IEM, it can be a matter of music gener, or even a choice becuase of the mood at certain moment. The same applied to Class A and Class AB selection.

 

[Andykong]

Yes, I know. I owned the N8 from date of launch until a few months back. And I still have the C9.

I suppsoe you can agree with me that C9 and N8 are different implementation of Nutube.

If N8 is more "tubey" than C9, does that make N8 is a better headphoen amplifier over C9 immediately?

A good vacuum tube amplifier is not judged by how tubey they are, IMHO.

 

[pkcpga]

Nutube is an indispensible part of N8ii audio tuning. The tube magic is still there. We said it is not as tubey as N8, that does not mean N8ii is wasting the Nutube. WE cannot achieve the current sound signature with a purely Solid Sate circuit.

In fact, there has always been TWO different camp among vaccum tube users.

Approach 1:
The amplifeir is only a vacuum tube socket with gain, the most important value of the amplifier is to allow user to appreciate the sound signature of the vacuum tube.

Approach 2:
The amplifier is a part of a sound system, we need to use whatever means to design a high quality amplifier to serve its purpose in a sound system. Vacumm Tube is the best mean to achieve that.

Users prefer Approach 1 will always ask the question: can I hear the different when I swap this tube with that tube, so they enjoy tube rolling, and some of them become a tube collectors.

Users prefer Approach 2 wil pay attention to the final sound performance, this is the growing number in the audiophile hobby. Modern tube amplifiers are very transparant, dynamic, and fast when compare to the tube amplfiers in 2-3 decades ago.

You can even tell this by NOS tubes, dynamic, more transparent tubes like some TeleFunken and Mazda are becoming extremely expensive and hard to find over Mullard or more syrupy tubes that used to be most popular. My last pair of Telefunken, bought 2 years ago for $450 a pair now Brent has are $1,799, crazy. My modern tube amp by amps and sound has a black quite background which allows the tube to be more transparent. I think with more people listening to high res there’s been more of a demand for more transparent tubes, even in the NOS collecting world.