[Levanter]

Thank you for your clarification. May I invite you to check out my explanation of N8ii tube amplificaiton design at the opening post of this thread or HERE?



We used three different circuit design to implement N8, C9 and N8ii. If "being tubey" is the only criteria, then N8ii will be the lowest rated candidate in the trio. If you expect "n8ii to sound closer to the tube mode on the n8", you can cross out N8ii from your wish list, unfortunately.

We have tried our best to explain our design phillosophy. The expalnation was thorougly explained in the product announcement livestream in Chinese, and I have posted the English version rougly three hours later here in HeadFi forum (both on opening post and on-going discussion).

We never use the term neutrual reference to descrbe the sound characteristic of our product because the term actually means totally different things to different poeple. Likewise, warm is a relative perception because we don't have a standard to mearsure "cold" or "warm" in audio performance. For example, if you are a Chord DAC users, N8ii tube mode is warm. If you are use N8 tube mode as reference, N8ii is cold.



I think my response to hshock76 will also answer your question. We have carefully fine tune the negative feedback loop in order to achieve the transparent, crispy and transient we are targeted at, so Nutube is definitely emplyed as one of the amplification stage, instead of using it as a buffer stage of DAC or amplification circuit. For the same reason, "Nutube is not in the loop for line out because nutubes are function as an amplification stage, it is not a buffer or dirver stage, so we can include Nutube in the Line out." (HERE)

If you look at the functional diagram of N8ii (HERE), you'll notice that the Nutube are immediately behind LPF and SE/BAL conversion, I'll call this FIRST stage of amplication if we need to concern about the sequence.

Do you mind explaining to us on what is the purpose of using nutubes / what do they bring to the N8ii amplification stage?
Since tubes are usually introduced to bring the tube-ish flavour into the sound, however since that is not the purpose of the nutubes in the N8ii, won’t you be able to get your end sound with just the SS amplification?

 

[bluestorm1992]

With the first batch sold out, I hope we can see 30 impressions here soon.

Just a quick thought, if the tube sound is not really noticeable to many people, will it make sense to, instead, make a dap that’s simply SS based? Should be way cheaper too.

I of course understand that the N8 product line always highlights the tube feature. But if this is the spirit, then the tube sound should be salient to be consistent with the nature of this product line. Otherwise, it is just a marketing thing.

Edit: Just saw the post above me that shared a similar concern

 

[Z_Showmaster]

Not always, but the way the Nutube is accounted in the feedback loops will definitely eliminate the tubes distortions

Not so much about the total cancellation of distortion, as that's part of the common-mode rejection from its differential design. N8ii's full balanced circuit is down to it being push-pull complementary, the tops of waveforms being equal to the bottoms in opposite phase. That changes the distortion characteristic (for the sake of discussions, the tubes) from even harmonic in N8, to odd harmonic in N8ii.

That's why the tube implementations sound especially different here at circuit level, adding to the architectural explanation from Andy.

 

[Z_Showmaster]

Since tubes are usually introduced to bring the tube-ish flavour into the sound, however since that is not the purpose of the nutubes in the N8ii, won’t you be able to get your end sound with just the SS amplification?

I of course understand that the N8 product line always highlights the tube feature. But if this is the spirit, then the tube sound should be salient to be consistent with the nature of this product line. Otherwise, it is just a marketing thing.

Tubes have purpose in the input, gain and driver stages of circuits. One such explanation here:

Tubes as input devices

If you want a tube, put it in the input or voltage gain stage. Of course, tubes that have odd harmonics over even harmonics may sound more "solid-state", but such circuits still image better usually and more realistically than solid-states. (We could go into square law or load lines though that would take more than one post, but a textbook. There's reams of material out there on the net in any case.)

IMPT NOTE: This is a generalisation of many other audio circuits that might use tubes in their input stages. It's not necessarily the exact implementation that applies in N8ii. But this DAP reaps the benefit of tubes.

 

[bluestorm1992]

Tubes have purpose in the input, gain and driver stages of circuits. One such explanation here:

Tubes as input devices

If you want a tube, put it in the input or voltage gain stage. Of course, tubes that have odd harmonics over even harmonics may sound more "solid-state", but such circuits still image better usually and more realistically than solid-states. (We could go into square law or load lines though that would take more than one post, but a textbook. There's reams of material out there on the net in any case.)

IMPT NOTE: This is a generalisation of many other audio circuits that might use tubes in their input stages. It's not necessarily the exact implementation that applies in N8ii. But this DAP reaps the benefit of tubes.

Thanks for the reply. I guess I am really thinking from a simple customer viewpoint: If I am buying a tube dap, I want to hear tube sound.

This is especially true if I am being charged a premium for the tube feature. N8ii is not cheap in any way.

 

[Z_Showmaster]

Tube sound is a bit hard to define, since it spans decades of examples for it being this, and for it being that.

As you'll read in upcoming reviews, and we who have heard N8ii can attest, you'll hear a difference switching in tubes for solid state, or vice versa. You can choose.

 

[Kiats]

Thanks for the reply. I guess I am really thinking from a simple customer viewpoint: If I am buying a tube dap, I want to hear tube sound.

This is especially true if I am being charged a premium for the tube feature. N8ii is not cheap in any way.

Have to agree with @bluestorm1992 here. In the run up to the release, the excitement was whipped up on the basis that this was the beloved N8 (with a wonderful nutube output implementation) with the strictures of SE output being lifted. And it is able to stream to boot. Hence, perhaps expectations could have better managed if the N8ii was deliberately planned, for some arcane reason, to use nutube but not sound like tube. Because nothing in the N8 nor the C9 prepared anyone for this.

 

[Z_Showmaster]

We should all hear it first. What we'll hear is a difference between tubes and solid-state, via the N8ii. I'd say, that's about what we can ask for.

 

[pkcpga]

I have a few tube amps and not all tubes are warm or liquid sounding. In a full tube amp I switch tubes for sound preferences occasionally, want something dynamic and forward swap to Mazda tubes, something warm or liquid sounding swap to Mullard, something with more sparkle swap to Telefunken, something V shaped Amperex. These are just generalizations but tubes tend to give a nice flesh timber to vocal and add an “air like harmonic” no matter their general tone. Tubes really shouldn’t be generalized as always “warm and smooth” since that’s not fair to tubes or amp designers. Really depends on the tube and how it’s implemented in the amp. When the demo N8ii has been properly burned in, I’m definitely interested in taking the drive to nyc for a listen to see how it meshes with my favorite IEMs, extremely interesting design and nice looking DAP.

 

[Z_Showmaster]

I have a few tube amps and not all tubes are warm or liquid sounding. In a full tube amp I switch tubes for sound preferences occasionally, want something dynamic and forward swap to Mazda tubes, something warm or liquid sounding swap to Mullard, something with more sparkle swap to Telefunken, something V shaped Amperex. These are just generalizations but tubes tend to give a nice flesh timber to vocal and add an “air like harmonic” no matter their general tone. Tubes really shouldn’t be generalized as always “warm and smooth” since that’s not fair to tubes or amp designers. Really depends on the tube and how it’s implemented in the amp. When the demo N8ii has been properly burned in, I’m definitely interested in taking the drive to nyc for a listen to see how it meshes with my favorite IEMs, extremely interesting design and nice looking DAP.

300%

 

[Kiats]

I have a few tube amps and not all tubes are warm or liquid sounding. In a full tube amp I switch tubes for sound preferences occasionally, want something dynamic and forward swap to Mazda tubes, something warm or liquid sounding swap to Mullard, something with more sparkle swap to Telefunken, something V shaped Amperex. These are just generalizations but tubes tend to give a nice flesh timber to vocal and add an “air like harmonic” no matter their general tone. Tubes really shouldn’t be generalized as always “warm and smooth” since that’s not fair to tubes or amp designers. Really depends on the tube and how it’s implemented in the amp. When the demo N8ii has been properly burned in, I’m definitely interested in taking the drive to nyc for a listen to see how it meshes with my favorite IEMs, extremely interesting design and nice looking DAP.

Agree. Save that I suspect here the surprise amongst the people who had put in pre-orders were on the faith of the nutube implementation would be along the parameters of previous Cayin nutube implmentations in the N8 and the C9. Especially since the attraction of the N8ii was built upon the joy that N8 owners had experienced. In that sense, here there were expectations: same DAP maker, same Korg nutubes. Hence, not quite the same variance you’d expect to get with different manufacturers of tubes.

 

[Whitigir]

I thought if this was the N8, without NuTube in SE restrictions, it is a WIN! A huge WIN for a Line Out source too!! But....change of plan

On another hand, I already have a Balanced Korg, push-pull design, with Line out, choice of solid state or Korg, powerful amplifications....etc...etc...and that is the Shanling M30. The Korg tubes on the M30 still sounds classy and tubes like IMO, even when compared to C9. It depends on preferences, but I would say that the C9 sounds like a modern Tubes signatures rather than being classy.

That means the M30 sounds as one would expect from the typical tubes, warmth, liquid, dense, and emotional, where as the C9 sounds quick, decisive, clean, great staging, with a slight touch of tubes density within the timbres, and with Class A, the C9 has a bit more warmth and bloom to it outcomes, still, when compared to the M30, the M30 sounds more of a classy and typical tubes.

Oh, and I can still use the Korg with Line Out on the M30 ! So, change of plans!

 

[Z_Showmaster]

Agree. Save that I suspect here the surprise amongst the people who had put in pre-orders were on the faith of the nutube implementation would be along the parameters of previous Cayin nutube implmentations in the N8 and the C9. Especially since the attraction of the N8ii was built upon the joy that N8 owners had experienced. In that sense, here there were expectations: same DAP maker, same Korg nutubes. Hence, not quite the same variance you’d expect to get with different manufacturers of tubes.

With respect, since many of the people pre-ordering have not yet heard the N8ii, I'd like for them to have their say when they get it, and refrain from prematurely judging blind/deaf before it's even arrived, let alone plugged in or burnt in.

Since I have heard it, it's unmistakably different, in a good way, to past results. It's unmistakably Cayin. And it's also unmistakably tube, when the mode is activated. I say that because there are endless examples of tube sounds, between amps on stock tubes too.

 

[justanut]

Not always, but the way the Nutube is accounted in the feedback loops will definitely eliminate the tubes distortions

I love you for that, honesty, enthusiastic and knowledgeable. We as a community are lucky to have you. I would say that you are a living dinosaur

Lol... Dinosaur in mandarin is "Kong-Long"...

 

[bigbeans]

I think those expecting the OG N8 tube sound may not have experienced C9. After owning and experiencing C9, my expectations for N8ii were set. For those curious on the direction of 'tube sound' Cayin has decided to take, look to C9 reviews as a starting point.

I do love the original N8, however Cayin did pivot the sound signature with C9 and have seemed to keep this direction with N8ii. I am excited to hear the N8ii as I did like my experience with C9, however the practicalities of C9 made using it inefficient for my use case.