Cayin N8ii: The Incredible DAP with ROHM DAC and fully BAL Nutube
Feb 25, 2022 at 2:51 PM Post #631 of 5,538
No conspiracy theories; merely accusations of marketing drivel.

As I say, Gerald, no-one's a bigger and more loyal fan of Roon than yours truly. :thumbsup:
unfortunately RAAT is a proprietary network protocol (it even requires the device to run Roon Lab's protocol server process), so the claims of superiority over AirPlay, Chromecast, etc. are hard to prove. But i do believe it's a genuinely different way of network communication between Roon Core and Roon endpoint. Not just drivel, in other words 😉
 
Feb 25, 2022 at 3:26 PM Post #633 of 5,538
Oh man, nothing is like awaiting for your preorder to come 😭 anyone is like me ?
I am right on the edge of pulling that trigger :p
 
Feb 25, 2022 at 3:29 PM Post #634 of 5,538
to the best of my knowledge, the A&K DAPs (https://roonlabs.com/partners/astellkern) are the only Roon Ready portables - and it took them forever to get there. Every other DAP that runs Android can of course install the Roon app and play music to the local DAP system output, but it's sound quality will be hampered by Android's limitations. Not so with (only) the A&Ks, which is really sweet IMHO. I'd love to be proven wrong though...
This is correct. As far as I know A&K make the only true "Roon Certified" DAPs. Any Android device can install the Roon app but it defaults to 44.1/48 and does not offer hi-res playback. Unless Cayin pulls a rabbit from the hat, N8ii will not be able to function as a true Roon endpoint.
 
Feb 25, 2022 at 3:51 PM Post #635 of 5,538
I am right on the edge of pulling that trigger :p
59ED2A13-5D1D-4CBA-9C56-7160F96E3F85.gif
 
Feb 25, 2022 at 3:56 PM Post #636 of 5,538
Feb 25, 2022 at 4:02 PM Post #637 of 5,538
Feb 25, 2022 at 4:09 PM Post #639 of 5,538
to the best of my knowledge, the A&K DAPs (https://roonlabs.com/partners/astellkern) are the only Roon Ready portables - and it took them forever to get there. Every other DAP that runs Android can of course install the Roon app and play music to the local DAP system output, but it's sound quality will be hampered by Android's limitations. Not so with (only) the A&Ks, which is really sweet IMHO. I'd love to be proven wrong though...
Wouldn't something like the N8ii with its purported all Android bypass, support the Roon app w/o sound quality limits, regardless of "Ready" status?
(No skin in this game, just curious if Roon put an artificial limit on their SW if the device wasn't certified)
 
Feb 25, 2022 at 4:17 PM Post #640 of 5,538
Wouldn't something like the N8ii with its purported all Android bypass, support the Roon app w/o sound quality limits, regardless of "Ready" status?
(No skin in this game, just curious if Roon put an artificial limit on their SW if the device wasn't certified)
Sadly no, because of how Roon coded the app. I've been holding out for them to fix it for a few years now, but no go.
 
Feb 25, 2022 at 4:21 PM Post #641 of 5,538
You’re killing me, Smalls!



You guys are going to buy them out before I can hear it this weekend

I’m waiting to hear also, possibly even til the second batch if necessary. Want to make sure it has a usable UI and streaming apps actually work and allow offline usage. Don’t want to be stuck with a $3,500 paper weight that doesn’t even resell easily.
 
Feb 25, 2022 at 4:33 PM Post #642 of 5,538
Sadly no, because of how Roon coded the app. I've been holding out for them to fix it for a few years now, but no go.
Thanks. That is sad. I bet they would grow massively if they also had a more open architecture. I do get the quality reason though.

My ULN-2 uses a proprietary LAN driver instead of USB-Thunderbolt/System OS to get the round trip returns at ridiculously low rates and sends the clock and data over the same pipe, at lengths up to 100 meters!!
So yeah, there are improvements that can be made on the networking side of things that if you designed, you'd want preserved to maintain your dominance.
 
Feb 25, 2022 at 4:39 PM Post #643 of 5,538
State-of-the-Art analogue amplification for DAP

N8ii is a showcase of integration. We didn’t offer any innovation technologies per se, but we have integrated almost everything we did in past 2-3 years into N8ii. As a result of that, the amplification of N8ii is an significant improvement over the original N8. On the other hand, if you are familiar with Cayiin DAPs and C9, you probably can read throught his part very quickly.

Fully-discrete fully-balanced

We have designed a 4-channels discrete components based circuit to serve as the headphone amplifier of N8ii. Going discrete allows more room to fine tune the audio performance of a circuitry than the more popular op-amp based approach. There are never-ending choices and combinations of audio grade JFET (Junction gate Field-Effect Transistor) and BJT (Bipolar Junction Transistor), we can regulate the voltage of different components, or use different resistors at various point of the circuit.
Because the choices and customisations are unlimited, we cannot assume all discrete circuit are equal. The experience of the engineering team plays a vital role in the final outcome although generally speaking, a discrete-based amplification circuit, if implemented properly, should out-perform op-amp alternatives.

On the other hand, disrete circuit require more space, drain more power, and dispense more heat than op-amp, that’s why we didn’t use them very often in DAP development. The E01 and E02 Audio Motherboards of N6ii are discrete based but they have serious limitations: E01 is single-ended only with limited output at Class A, E02 is Class AB only. Fortunately, the compartmentalized CNC Aluminum chassis of N8ii disperses heat at very high efficiency, and the verical placement of Nutube created a lot of room (and breathing space) for the circuit, and we can install a huge battery to powe the discrete circuit. With all these in place, the discrete amplification circiut havs a brilliant head start and we are very please with what we have offerd in N8ii.

Last but not least, we have noticed the trend of very low impedance IEMs in recent year. When we optimize our N8ii amplification circuit, handling low impedance load is one of our agenda. We are happy with the outcome and we add rated output of 16Ω loading to provide more information for low-impedance IEM users.

1645821739756.png


Dual Amplification Mode

The Dual Amplifier Operation (DAO) implies the same amplification circuit in two distinctive mode of operations: Class A or Class AB. The difference between the two modes is simply the point at which the transistors are biased. “In the case of Class A, the transistor is biased so that over the entire cycle of the RF input, the transistor is operating within its linear portion. In the case of Class AB, part of the cycle of the input is actually turning the transistor off". (cf Acquitek)

Class A being a faithful reproduction of the input signal at lower distortion, it has its technical merit over Class AB, that is if you can live with the inefficient and excessive heat. However we cannot jump to the conclusion that one is better than the others in real life. If you are looking for maximum clean headroom and appreciate contrast and dynamic in your playback, your properly prefer Class AB. On the other hand, if vocal is your main genre and you enjoys warm, smooth and “a bit of soul” in your music, then you probably will stick with Class A most of the time. That why DAO is desirable whenever possible as users can switch between these two modes instantly through pull-down menu, based on their personal preference, music genres, and/or matching with different IEM/headphones.

For speaker amplifier, Class A almost always offer less power than Class AB in the same circuit. That's because power supply become the bottleneck is similar implementation. With battery power DAP, we happen to have a slight advantage. When we devleop our C9 portable amplfier, we have achieved a DAO circuit that can operate in Class A and Class AB with the same rated output, and power supply played a very important role in C9 implementation. We managed to adapt our C9 experience to N8ii, making it another DAO circuit that deliver almost the same power at Class A and Class AB.

When we implement the discrete Class A amplification in N8ii, we have to make sure all four amplification channels are in near-identical gain. We have to manually match critical components and installed them to the PCB manually before reflow soldering. In addition, we must control the static current so that the discrete components will remain perfectly stable operation in saturation mode, therefore adjustments is need to compensate the deviation cause by discrete components. As illustrated in the PCB photo, there are FOUR adjustable resistors in place. We’ll fine tune each assembled PCB manually to match our reference design. All these procedures involve extra resource and is very time consuming, that’s why discrete Class A is an expensive option, especially on compact devices such as portable DAP.

For the record, the headphone amplifier circuit of the original N8 consist of 6 op-amp only. The N8ii takes up two side of the lower 1/3 of the PCB. This is a serious resource devotion to improve the headphone amplication circuit.

N8ii Discrete Class A.jpg


Dual Output Mode

N8ii DAP incurred the unique Dual Output Mode from the original N8. We regulate the operational voltage of headphone amplification circuit to offer P (Standard) and P+ (High Power) mode. For those who have been in the HiFi hobby long enough, you probably noticed that the critical factor of High Fidelity is electricity, i.e., power supply in your equipment. When we increase the voltage of our discrete headphone amplification circuit, it will not only deliver more power and improve its handling capability, but also changed the sound of the discrete components. In other word, your IEM probably won’t need the extra power of the P+ mode, but it won’t hurt to have an alternative sound signature from their DAP.

Unfortunately, even when cost is no object, we are still bounded by the law of physics. We cannot engage P+ mode and Class A simultaneously. This will drain very high current from the battery and generate heats that can’t be disperse effectively given the tight space available with N8ii.

Now that we have explained the Tube timbre circuit and Headphone Amp circuit, we can take a closer look to the Headphoen output specification and block diagream of the circuit design. There are several points that I want to draw your attention from these tables/chart:

  • Unlike C9 and N8, there is no alternative Solid State alternative in the Dual Timber Circuit function. Dual Timbre in N8ii is equivalent to enable/disable of Vacuum Tube Amplifcation.
  • We didn't specify the rated output of Class A and Class AB seperately because they are very similar and we need to simplify the tables in specification. The N8ii specificaiton is very comprehensive when compare to other DAPs.
  • On top of P and P+ mode, N8ii offers 3 gain stages namely High, Mid and Low. Each gain stage is 6dB different.
  • There are numerous setting that can affect the tonal characterisitc of N8ii, might take a while to explore all the combinations
    • Dual Timbre: Solid State/Vacuum Tube
    • DOM: P/P+
    • DAO: Class A/Class AB
    • Digital Filters: (2xPCM, 3xDSD)

Cayin N8ii Spec 3.5mm Phone.jpg

Cayin N8ii Spec 4.4mm Phone.jpg

N8ii Functional Framework (Phone out).jpg
 
Last edited:
Cayin Stay updated on Cayin at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
http://en.cayin.cn/
Feb 25, 2022 at 4:52 PM Post #645 of 5,538
State-of-the-Art analogue amplification for DAP

N8ii is a showcase of integration. We didn’t offer any innovation technologies per se, but we have integrated almost everything we did in past 2-3 years into N8ii. As a result of that, the amplification of N8ii is an significant improvement over the original N8. On the other hand, if you are familiar with Cayiin DAPs and C9, you probably can read throught his part very quickly.

Fully-discrete fully-balanced

We have designed a 4-channels discrete components based circuit to serve as the headphone amplifier of N8ii. Going discrete allows more room to fine tune the audio performance of a circuitry than the more popular op-amp based approach. There are never-ending choices and combinations of audio grade JFET (Junction gate Field-Effect Transistor) and BJT (Bipolar Junction Transistor), we can regulate the voltage of different components, or use different resistors at various point of the circuit.
Because the choices and customisations are unlimited, we cannot assume all discrete circuit are equal. The experience of the engineering team plays a vital role in the final outcome although generally speaking, a discrete-based amplification circuit, if implemented properly, should out-perform op-amp alternatives.

On the other hand, disrete circuit require more space, drain more power, and dispense more heat than op-amp, that’s why we didn’t use them very often in DAP development. The E01 and E02 Audio Motherboards of N6ii are discrete based but they have serious limitations: E01 is single-ended only with limited output at Class A, E02 is Class AB only. Fortunately, the compartmentalized CNC Aluminum chassis of N8ii disperses heat at very high efficiency, and the verical placement of Nutube created a lot of room (and breathing space) for the circuit, and we can install a huge battery to powe the discrete circuit. With all these in place, the discrete amplification circiut havs a brilliant head start and we are very please with what we have offerd in N8ii.

Last but not least, we have noticed the trend of very low impedance IEMs in recent year. When we optimize our N8ii amplification circuit, handling low impedance load is one of our agenda. We are happy with the outcome and we add rated output of 16Ω loading to provide more information for low-impedance IEM users.

1645821739756.png

Dual Amplification Mode

The Dual Amplifier Operation (DAO) implies the same amplification circuit in two distinctive mode of operations: Class A or Class AB. The difference between the two modes is simply the point at which the transistors are biased. “In the case of Class A, the transistor is biased so that over the entire cycle of the RF input, the transistor is operating within its linear portion. In the case of Class AB, part of the cycle of the input is actually turning the transistor off". (cf Acquitek)

Class A being a faithful reproduction of the input signal at lower distortion, it has its technical merit over Class AB, that is if you can live with the inefficient and excessive heat. However we cannot jump to the conclusion that one is better than the others in real life. If you are looking for maximum clean headroom and appreciate contrast and dynamic in your playback, your properly prefer Class AB. On the other hand, if vocal is your main genre and you enjoys warm, smooth and “a bit of soul” in your music, then you probably will stick with Class A most of the time. That why DAO is desirable whenever possible as users can switch between these two modes instantly through pull-down menu, based on their personal preference, music genres, and/or matching with different IEM/headphones.

For speaker amplifier, Class A almost always offer less power than Class AB in the same circuit. That's because power supply become the bottleneck is similar implementation. With battery power DAP, we happen to have a slight advantage. When we devleop our C9 portable amplfier, we have achieved a DAO circuit that can operate in Class A and Class AB with the same rated output, and power supply played a very important role in C9 implementation. We managed to adapt our C9 experience to N8ii, making it another DAO circuit that deliver almost the same power at Class A and Class AB.

When we implement the discrete Class A amplification in N8ii, we have to make sure all four amplification channels are in near-identical gain. We have to manually match critical components and installed them to the PCB manually before reflow soldering. In addition, we must control the static current so that the discrete components will remain perfectly stable operation in saturation mode, therefore adjustments is need to compensate the deviation cause by discrete components. As illustrated in the PCB photo, there are FOUR adjustable resistors in place. We’ll fine tune each assembled PCB manually to match our reference design. All these procedures involve extra resource and is very time consuming, that’s why discrete Class A is an expensive option, especially on compact devices such as portable DAP.

N8ii Discrete Class A.jpg

Dual Output Mode

N8ii DAP incurred the unique Dual Output Mode from the original N8. We regulate the operational voltage of headphone amplification circuit to offer P (Standard) and P+ (High Power) mode. For those who have been in the HiFi hobby long enough, you probably noticed that the critical factor of High Fidelity is electricity, i.e., power supply in your equipment. When we increase the voltage of our discrete headphone amplification circuit, it will not only deliver more power and improve its handling capability, but also changed the sound of the discrete components. In other word, your IEM probably won’t need the extra power of the P+ mode, but it won’t hurt to have an alternative sound signature from their DAP.

Unfortunately, even when cost is no object, we are still bounded by the law of physics. We cannot engage P+ mode and Class A simultaneously. This will drain very high current from the battery and generate heats that can’t be disperse effectively given the tight space available with N8ii.

Cayin N8ii Spec 3.5mm Phone.jpg
Cayin N8ii Spec 4.4mm Phone.jpg
N8ii Functional Framework (Phone out).jpg
Thanks Andy. One question, is the P and P+ mode similar to Hiby R8’s Turbo mode? Meaning that besides the P & P+ mode, there’s also the low, mid, high gain function?
 

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