Cayin N7: A Voyager of Unexplored Frontier
Feb 25, 2023 at 5:24 AM Post #377 of 1,845
Y

DSD64, DSD128, DSD256 and DSD512 will go through Audio Bridge because that's the single entrance point to 1-Bit DAC circuit, but they'll bypass the SRC chip completely. You won't have an option to upsample DSD64 to DSD512 even if you wanted to.
That's what I wanted to hear! SRC chip will be bypassed, so I can use HQPlayer filters to upsample everything to DSD512 :L3000:
 
Feb 25, 2023 at 5:29 AM Post #378 of 1,845
Following the introductions and explanations here, I am thinking along the following lines.

Notwithstanding the - way too coarse and generalized! - saying of ”a DAC does not have a sound, it is the implementation (e.g. amp) and transducer (e.g. IEM) that determine the sound“, we have experienced that IC-DACs have some sort of sound of their own. We do distinguish AKM, ROHM, ESS, TI, and many others - some are ascribed a ”house sound“.

With the N7 now, it occurs to me that one of the principal elements that is determining the sound might be the Audio Bridge. I dare to go out on a limb and suppose that it is an integrated circuit (IC), manufactured by a third party. If I am not mistaken, nothing much has been said (yet?) about its specifics. Would Cayin say more about it?

Why do I ascribe a crucial role to the Audio Bridge? It does the all-encompassing conversion of PCM to DSD in the N7.

Why do I think there might be many ways / algorithms for such conversion? Just as an example, think of the many algorithms for sample rate conversion within the PCM domain.

Just some thoughts…
 
Feb 25, 2023 at 6:54 AM Post #379 of 1,845
There are definitely many possible ways to re-sample PCM to DSD. Having a 1-bit DAC could be either good or bad. 1-bit output does tend to sound a bit soft any time I've tried it through dedicated 1-bit processors in various DACs. It's arguably slightly less natural (compared to live music) but can be more pleasant to listen to. I'm sure that will be very appealing in Asia.
 
Feb 25, 2023 at 7:13 AM Post #380 of 1,845
Following the introductions and explanations here, I am thinking along the following lines.

Notwithstanding the - way too coarse and generalized! - saying of ”a DAC does not have a sound, it is the implementation (e.g. amp) and transducer (e.g. IEM) that determine the sound“, we have experienced that IC-DACs have some sort of sound of their own. We do distinguish AKM, ROHM, ESS, TI, and many others - some are ascribed a ”house sound“.

With the N7 now, it occurs to me that one of the principal elements that is determining the sound might be the Audio Bridge. I dare to go out on a limb and suppose that it is an integrated circuit (IC), manufactured by a third party. If I am not mistaken, nothing much has been said (yet?) about its specifics. Would Cayin say more about it?

Why do I ascribe a crucial role to the Audio Bridge? It does the all-encompassing conversion of PCM to DSD in the N7.

Why do I think there might be many ways / algorithms for such conversion? Just as an example, think of the many algorithms for sample rate conversion within the PCM domain.

Just some thoughts…
https://www.comtrue-inc.com/index.php/download2?task=download.send&id=15&catid=5&m=0
 
Feb 25, 2023 at 7:32 AM Post #381 of 1,845
Following the introductions and explanations here, I am thinking along the following lines.

Notwithstanding the - way too coarse and generalized! - saying of ”a DAC does not have a sound, it is the implementation (e.g. amp) and transducer (e.g. IEM) that determine the sound“, we have experienced that IC-DACs have some sort of sound of their own. We do distinguish AKM, ROHM, ESS, TI, and many others - some are ascribed a ”house sound“.

With the N7 now, it occurs to me that one of the principal elements that is determining the sound might be the Audio Bridge. I dare to go out on a limb and suppose that it is an integrated circuit (IC), manufactured by a third party. If I am not mistaken, nothing much has been said (yet?) about its specifics. Would Cayin say more about it?

Why do I ascribe a crucial role to the Audio Bridge? It does the all-encompassing conversion of PCM to DSD in the N7.

Why do I think there might be many ways / algorithms for such conversion? Just as an example, think of the many algorithms for sample rate conversion within the PCM domain.

Just some thoughts…

If I can speak quickly on behalf of Cayin, it's the programmable logic aboard N7's FPGA preceding the audio bridge that plays a big role in how the final 1-bit stream sounds. It's what generates the I2S (data, bit clock, master clock, word clock) into the audio bridge. How it handles that, now and in future upgrades, could play a big part in how N7 sounds.

But there is something inherent to all 1-bit converters, in the way they do their decode. Scarlet Book standards call for a 7th order noise-shaper. Executed in workable engineering, that's a low-pass filter in the analog domain. Musical frequencies pass through, what's above the Scarlet Book definition of 50Khz (or where ever a designer sets his low-pass filter) gets blocked.

If DSD DAC designers follow this formula, which is going to be really common owing to the physics of a 1-bit decode, then results from a DSD DAC should be more or less closer to the next one than further. Ie: the filtering is very simple. Compare that to a PCM digital filter in FIR – with lots of ringing, slow or fast roll-off slopes, Nyquist, corner frequency, sharpness of the knee etc etc. – that has a lot of variables, and that's why various DAC IC manufacturers have a sound.

Not because of the silicon, but because of the digital filters written aboard. Oh, they are rarely 1-bit designs, being 2-6 bit delta-sigma (or PWM in the case of ESS) designs. Having many modulators complicates things greatly – and errors during the dynamic element matching process abound in chip IC silicon.

Laying that basis, I'll try as simply as possible to answer @111MilesToGo's question:

  1. The audio-bridge and 1-bit DAC are like the heart of N7. The heart beats and pumps blood involuntarily. In N7, these two items in the signal path convert 1-bit audio involuntarily.
  2. It's in the FPGA logic, the brains of N7, that dictates how a DSD decode could sound since it can be taught new things with new programming, and certainly influence lots of how PCM is set up to be converted to DSD in the audio bridge.
  3. DSD, owing to very simple filtering before becoming analog, can (will) sound more consistent than PCM can, because PCM's digital filters can get very, very complicated and that's where a lot of the IP in a good PCM DAC lies.
  4. The digital decode is the start of the analog chain in N7, but there are many things that follow such as the discrete low-pass stage handling the small voltage signal influencing how N7 really sounds.

Below I'll leave you my snippet of why we think N7's discrete gain stage sounds so special ...

N7's driver section counts on all the benefits that come with a discrete bipolar design – low voltage noise, low open-loop gain and the resultantly lower negative feedback necessary, high slew rates and unity gain stability. This accurate linearity means that whatever entered N7's DAC as digital, comes out exactly the same in analog. There's a reason N7 portrays elements within the soundstage with such solidity, the aural images it generates so convincingly rendered – its small signal post-conversion is of the highest quality, and inherently stable without going into oscillation caused by too much gain product.

... and I'm very eager to read more of Andy's inside stories about Cayin's development – the next I believe exactly about the discrete small-signal stage – because it's been a fascinating journey with them.
 
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Feb 25, 2023 at 9:23 AM Post #382 of 1,845
Okay so I spent pretty much the entire day yesterday using the N7, doing small A/B to SP3000 and overall getting a feel for what this DAP is about. I have maybe 5-6 listening hours on it so far, so take these impressions FWIW.

I feel the N7 really hits a sweet spot between that organic/natural r2r sound in the mid range while retaining my personal favorite aspects of DS DAC chips which would be a high level of technicals and proper treble extension. The overall tone is a neutral and natural sound, I don’t have N8ii with me anymore but it reminds me of a less energetic in the upper mids and highs and smoother version of that. There isn’t any mid bass coloring to my ears, so sub bass extension is deep and well textured. Soundstage is huge and wraps around your head, with precise imaging. It’s quite an addicting presentation. You feel you get the vocal projection and mid range up close and everything else just expands outwards creating a very immersive stage presentation.

Switching from class AB to A makes the sound a smidge fuller and more organic, I really like this for a more vocal oriented presentation.
The SP3000 in comparison has a blacker background (it’s the best I’ve heard) coupled with a slightly warmer but still neutral presentation. SP3000 has a small mid bass bump and the mids don’t sit as forward relative to N7.

Based off my initial testing and thoughts, Cayin has another winner on their hands. I’m looking forward to seeing how this may change with more use.

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Feb 25, 2023 at 11:06 AM Post #383 of 1,845
The whole thing to remember about N7 is that it is a DSD DAC. PCM is a very alien thing to a DSD DAC, and so anything that's FLAC, WAV or MQA gets turned into DSD for a 1-bit decode.

It's not superfluous, it's not PCM to DSD for the sake of it, just a feature etc. Cayin striving to decode at 1-bit is very intentional on a technological level, and it pays off. It delivers, brings audible benefits, and is exactly why (or one of the biggest reasons) N7 sounds the way it does.

Whether it sounds better than other gear you've heard before, your ears will tell you via demo. But what can be said about N7 is that it's entirely proprietary – nothing currently on the market will sound like N7. It's entirely unique unto itself.
Yes, to put it bluntly, the DAC circuit can only decode DSD format, any non-DSD format will need to transcode to DSD before N7 can decode it.

I guess this will take a while before users get used to this "abnormal" approach.

... and I'm very eager to read more of Andy's inside stories about Cayin's development – the next I believe exactly about the discrete small-signal stage – because it's been a fascinating journey with them.

I'll focus on CanJam NYC this weekend, so I probably won't continue my writing schedule until Tuesday. If things move on smoothly, my next N7 explanation post will be Discrete LPF. :pray:
 
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Feb 25, 2023 at 5:59 PM Post #384 of 1,845
I wish these kind of large transportable DAPs with mediocre battery life would include a feature so that you could listen while plugged in, without risk of damage. Listening will most likely be stationary, and having to stop listening and remember to recharge every 6 hours or so is annoying.

What is the feature within laptops that allows you to work plugged in without long term battery health issues?
 
Feb 25, 2023 at 6:37 PM Post #385 of 1,845
I wish these kind of large transportable DAPs with mediocre battery life would include a feature so that you could listen while plugged in, without risk of damage. Listening will most likely be stationary, and having to stop listening and remember to recharge every 6 hours or so is annoying.

What is the feature within laptops that allows you to work plugged in without long term battery health issues?

Fiio M17 - desktop class transportable DAP - contains a two power supplies: battery power supply and power supply powered by external DC power. There’s a DC/Batt mode switch on the side, when set to DC and using external DC power, allows you to bypass the battery supply use/charging while listening.

Re: laptop, you mean “battery charging limit”?
 
Feb 25, 2023 at 8:49 PM Post #386 of 1,845
Fiio M17 - desktop class transportable DAP - contains a two power supplies: battery power supply and power supply powered by external DC power. There’s a DC/Batt mode switch on the side, when set to DC and using external DC power, allows you to bypass the battery supply use/charging while listening.

Re: laptop, you mean “battery charging limit”?
Either referring to removal of battery entirely or battery bypass - which means you can power your device straight out of mains without the internal battery interfering. I think smartphones are starting to get this feature - HS Power Control on the Xperia and whatever Samsung calls it in the S23 Ultra. It could be done in a DAP - would make sense to double up as a desktop (at home listening) and out in the wild (on the go) listening device. Some alternatives if you want to avoid charging every 6 hours - slow charging by using a 5W-8W cable that barely puts enough juice to lengthen the battery (doesn't harm the battery- just slows its discharge), modding the device - voids warranty immediately and is very very risky (physically adding extra battery - some dare to do that, wouldn't advise for it during warranty period as it could brick the device without sufficient knowledge - i.e. voltage, output and technical expertise on how to replace without damaging other parts), another alternative if not streaming is (turn on airplane mode so no wifi/ bluetooth/gps, turn on battery saving mode (slows processor so not running full throttle- shouldn't affect audio but check if you notice an effect), in developer settings restrict background applications to minimum, turn on greyscale/ b&w mode and see what else you can do in settings to extend battery life - if you use a streaming service download to device and then listen). Not the most convenient, but hey these may be some potential alternatives.
 
Feb 26, 2023 at 12:03 AM Post #387 of 1,845
I wish these kind of large transportable DAPs with mediocre battery life would include a feature so that you could listen while plugged in, without risk of damage. Listening will most likely be stationary, and having to stop listening and remember to recharge every 6 hours or so is annoying.

What is the feature within laptops that allows you to work plugged in without long term battery health issues?
That option is only available on FiiO M17 dap with Enhanced Over Ear Gain mode. While plugged in, you get desktop level power output and it completely turns off internal battery usage :wink:
 
Feb 26, 2023 at 4:46 AM Post #389 of 1,845
Did anyone managed to try the N7 as a DAC for HiFi system with 7V output or with external Headphone amp?
How would it compared to desktop HQ DAC?
That thing is brand new, so not many should have tried it yet but if you read this thread you will see that one of its key fearures is running as preamp into other amps, desktop or mobile like C9 so it should perform very well for that use case
 
Feb 26, 2023 at 4:50 AM Post #390 of 1,845
That thing is brand new, so not many should have tried it yet but if you read this thread you will see that one of its key fearures is running as preamp into other amps, desktop or mobile like C9 so it should perform very well for that use case
That is exactly what I'm hoping for and from the specs it looks like the N7 going to excel on this, but before pressing the BUY button wanted some reassurance on the topic.
 

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