[superpc]

I've used multiple cables from different manufacturers.  Biggest changes seem to be slight changes in impedance - which correlates mostly into slight changes in volume (one will be louder than the other).  The problem is that most people comparing do not volume match (with a proper SPL meter) when they compare.  Therefore whichever one is slightly louder (and it can be something really small like 1 dB) can be perceived as being brighter, more vibrant, better bass, more details, better sound-stage - all the usual jargon.  When measuring the frequency change - all that is really different is the volume.  The frequency curves almost always match. So changing the volume will net you the same differences.  I've started showing it in some of my latest reviews - actual measurements.

Ken has designed cables (especially latest Litz - which is a great cable in terms of comfort, noise, aesthetics and ergonomics) to match perfectly with the IEMs he produces. Why would you add aftermarket cables when in reality you would be better simply adjusting the volume slightly for the same effect?

Hi Brooko, I trust your measurement and is firmly in the camp of if measurement shows no difference there should not be difference. However, I've tried using a Mee Audio P1 cable on my Orion and it changed the sound DRASTICALLY, thou in a bad way. I believe that would actually shows up in measurement although I've no way of measuring it here in SG. I'd love to do it if I could.

I'm not sure how big is the difference in the impedance is between the Mee Audio cable and stock Orion cable. But I really was caught by surprise how big of a change there was because I *did not* believe in cable at all prior to that, so there was no perception bias too in my case.

Off-topic: is a FR measurement equipment expensive?

 

[kimD]

Hi Brooki
Hi Brooko, I trust your measurement and is firmly in the camp of if measurement shows no difference there should not be difference. However, I've tried using a Mee Audio P1 cable on my Orion and it changed the sound DRASTICALLY, thou in a bad way. I believe that would actually shows up in measurement although I've no way of measuring it here in SG. I'd love to do it if I could.

I'm not sure how big is the difference in the impedance is between the Mee Audio cable and stock Orion cable. But I really was caught by surprise how big of a change there was because I *did not* believe in cable at all prior to that, so there was no perception bias too in my case.

Off-topic: is a FR measurement equipment expensive?

Hi, if you best in SG, that's good too
Just simple walk-in ConnectIT and do try for thier ALO sxc24 vs Mee P1 cable, then you will get the right answer as well

 

[Brooko]

Hi Brooko, I trust your measurement and is firmly in the camp of if measurement shows no difference there should not be difference. However, I've tried using a Mee Audio P1 cable on my Orion and it changed the sound DRASTICALLY, thou in a bad way. I believe that would actually shows up in measurement although I've no way of measuring it here in SG. I'd love to do it if I could.

I'm not sure how big is the difference in the impedance is between the Mee Audio cable and stock Orion cable. But I really was caught by surprise how big of a change there was because I *did not* believe in cable at all prior to that, so there was no perception bias too in my case.

Off-topic: is a FR measurement equipment expensive?

 
The reason is that the MEE P1 cable has higher impedance and actually drops the volume down by about 2.5 dB )I've measured the P1 cable against the ALO Tinsel on the P1). It could affect the Orion's overall impedance (you would have to check with Ken as I don't have a measurement for its impedance curve  - only frequency).
 
Anyway - the Orion plus P1 cable will be quieter.  It will likely sound (apparently) less detailed, more closed in, and muffled.  All that will disappear as you raise the volume on your source.
 
Not cable magic - simply a question of power delivery to the drivers.

 

[Brooko]

Off-topic: is a FR measurement equipment expensive?

 
Sorry - missed this bit initially.  Really good equipment - like the gear Ken and other manufactures have (GRAS etc) is quite expensive.  Essential though if you are designing earphones.
 
I use a Vibro Veritas coupler and a cheap (but functional) external USB sound card. The measurements are accurate if used comparative to other measurements on the same gear. And they are pretty close to other raw measurements up to about 4-5kHz, but from 4/5 kHz upaward the mics aren't that good and haven't been calibrated properly.  So my measurements there are usually understated.  I explain that in my reviews.
 
I'm hoping at some stage to be able to measure the same IEM on both mine and Ken's set-up (also with Jude's at Head-Fi at some stage), compare the raw data, and build a calibration adjustment at some stage.

 

[audio123]

Yeah not sure why there's so much talk about upgrading these cables. They are already very well designed that alone sell for $150. Most stock cables beg to be upgraded, but not these ones. No need too really unless you just want a different termination such as 2.5mm balanced.

well there are some cables in the market costing at least 1000 USD and there is demand for it...

 

[superpc]

The reason is that the MEE P1 cable has higher impedance and actually drops the volume down by about 2.5 dB )I've measured the P1 cable against the ALO Tinsel on the P1). It could affect the Orion's overall impedance (you would have to check with Ken as I don't have a measurement for its impedance curve  - only frequency).

Anyway - the Orion plus P1 cable will be quieter.  It will likely sound (apparently) less detailed, more closed in, and muffled.  All that will disappear as you raise the volume on your source.

Not cable magic - simply a question of power delivery to the drivers.

I'm well aware of the volume drop and indeed raise it to match the stock cable. It's still extremely different. Not talking about subtle details etc but the sound is totally changed.

It's to such extent that I thought the cable could be faulty. And I still don't exclude that possibility. I'll bring my IEM down to the shop to try another P1 cable.

Please note that I do not believe in "magic" as much as you, and strongly disagree with people who, without objective quantification, recommend cables. It's also why I'm interested to measure mine to prove my point. It is an observation that I have, and would love to quantify. It's unfortunate that I do not have that equipment, so it's understandable too that you think I'm just stating a placebo effect. I bought the P1 cable for convenience sake (smaller jack for phone case) and less microphonics and it was exactly because I thought it wouldn't change the sound quality that led to that purchase.

I'll update again if the cable was really in fact faulty. Although I highly doubt so as a friend of mine tried it on a Westone UMPro30 and it was fine. An interesting note is that I in fact did not/could not hear much difference on the Westone, in stark contrast to the Orion.

Thanks for the description on FR equipment I'll keep them in mind.

 

[kino lau]

From my home stereo infatuation over the past couple of decades, I came to believe that everything sounds good when it's loud. True musical quality reveals itself in the lower volume presentation as well. If something sounds like mud at low volume, turning it up just makes it louder mud. 

 

[Brooko]

I'm well aware of the volume drop and indeed raise it to match the stock cable. It's still extremely different. Not talking about subtle details etc but the sound is totally changed.

It's to such extent that I thought the cable could be faulty. And I still don't exclude that possibility. I'll bring my IEM down to the shop to try another P1 cable.

Please note that I do not believe in "magic" as much as you, and strongly disagree with people who, without objective quantification, recommend cables. It's also why I'm interested to measure mine to prove my point. It is an observation that I have, and would love to quantify. It's unfortunate that I do not have that equipment, so it's understandable too that you think I'm just stating a placebo effect. I bought the P1 cable for convenience sake (smaller jack for phone case) and less microphonics and it was exactly because I thought it wouldn't change the sound quality that led to that purchase.

I'll update again if the cable was really in fact faulty. Although I highly doubt so as a friend of mine tried it on a Westone UMPro30 and it was fine. An interesting note is that I in fact did not/could not hear much difference on the Westone, in stark contrast to the Orion.

Thanks for the description on FR equipment I'll keep them in mind.

 
All I can point you to is the measurements of the P1 I took - in comparison to FiiO cable and ALO Tinsel cable - review data here
 
Maybe your cable is actually faulty.  Mine shows no measurable or audible difference - other than the much lower volume.

 

[kimD]

Sorry to talks about cables here and out of topic.

But I would like to shares my opinion only.
Such as ALO copper 22 will do much warmer sounds signature than the rest hybrid cable.
ALO sxc24 would be the best, can feel that more brighter sparkle mids & treble side.
ALO sxc8 another level, will be enhance impact bass.
IF pure copper + silver hybrid cable, both are good, bass & brighter sound as well.

For myself will prefer over sxc8, cause I can't afford now, usually can't afford is the most best cable out there

Fiio 8 cores silver cable not as good, the sound just be the averaged

 

[Raketen]

Quite fond of Tinsel myself using as a replacement cable- thin, tough, with molded connectors (which very few custom cables offer) that make firmer contact than the stock cable had, does pick up a bit of frictional noise but not too bad. I might replace it with a Super BaX in the future for comfort but I think it's a  pretty fine cable.

 

[musiclvr]

I've used multiple cables from different manufacturers.  Biggest changes seem to be slight changes in impedance - which correlates mostly into slight changes in volume (one will be louder than the other).  The problem is that most people comparing do not volume match (with a proper SPL meter) when they compare.  Therefore whichever one is slightly louder (and it can be something really small like 1 dB) can be perceived as being brighter, more vibrant, better bass, more details, better sound-stage - all the usual jargon.  When measuring the frequency change - all that is really different is the volume.  The frequency curves almost always match. So changing the volume will net you the same differences.  I've started showing it in some of my latest reviews - actual measurements.

Ken has designed cables (especially latest Litz - which is a great cable in terms of comfort, noise, aesthetics and ergonomics) to match perfectly with the IEMs he produces. Why would you add aftermarket cables when in reality you would be better simply adjusting the volume slightly for the same effect?

Well said!

 

[goldendarko]

Damn this thing (Andromeda) is almost the perfect IEM for my tastes! I've never been much of an IEM guy but this one is just blowing me away. Crazy how far these things have come in the past few years, heck of a product you got here Ken B., well done 

 

[WCDchee]

I've used multiple cables from different manufacturers.  Biggest changes seem to be slight changes in impedance - which correlates mostly into slight changes in volume (one will be louder than the other).  The problem is that most people comparing do not volume match (with a proper SPL meter) when they compare.  Therefore whichever one is slightly louder (and it can be something really small like 1 dB) can be perceived as being brighter, more vibrant, better bass, more details, better sound-stage - all the usual jargon.  When measuring the frequency change - all that is really different is the volume.  The frequency curves almost always match. So changing the volume will net you the same differences.  I've started showing it in some of my latest reviews - actual measurements.

Ken has designed cables (especially latest Litz - which is a great cable in terms of comfort, noise, aesthetics and ergonomics) to match perfectly with the IEMs he produces. Why would you add aftermarket cables when in reality you would be better simply adjusting the volume slightly for the same effect?

Well as much as I respect many of your reviews, this is where we differ in our opinions

I do think that cables can make a pretty noticeable difference to the sound. I won't say it's big, but it's there. In fact I was just trying it out with my dad the other day on the speakers at home (his hearing isn't too good on one ear), and each time, he accurately identified the cables, 10/10 times. It was completely blind for him, he just sat there and listened with his eyes closed.

I'm not saying that all cables can make a huge difference. Many don't sound all that different. But some do. In fact, even the ALO litz and tinsel cables can sound rather different, and I'm not the only one who says this, Ken confirms too that they do better for different things. I personally prefer the sound and the ergonomics of the litz over the tinsel.

Just another example to add. This other iem company that I know, (won't share who though) that makes one of my top 5 Favourite iems, have actually shown measurable differences with different cables on their 40k dollar Klippel system. We were all surprised when we saw it, but yes it's there.

It's similar with DAPs, almost every single DAP, DAC, and amp measures ruler flat. But they don't sound the same, not in the slightest bit.

Sorry to derail the thread, but here are just my thoughts. Not intending to start a debate and wreck this thread, but I Guess what I'm trying to say is this:

Listen for yourself and if you hear an improvement, good on you, if you think it's worth it, go for it. If you listen and it sounds the same whether it's a 5 dollar cable or a 1000 dollar cable, then good on you too, save the money!

 

[Mimouille]

Well as much as I respect many of your reviews, this is where we differ in our opinions

I do think that cables can make a pretty noticeable difference to the sound. I won't say it's big, but it's there. In fact I was just trying it out with my dad the other day on the speakers at home (his hearing isn't too good on one ear), and each time, he accurately identified the cables, 10/10 times. It was completely blind for him, he just sat there and listened with his eyes closed.

I'm not saying that all cables can make a huge difference. Many don't sound all that different. But some do. In fact, even the ALO litz and tinsel cables can sound rather different, and I'm not the only one who says this, Ken confirms too that they do better for different things. I personally prefer the sound and the ergonomics of the litz over the tinsel.

Just another example to add. This other iem company that I know, (won't share who though) that makes one of my top 5 Favourite iems, have actually shown measurable differences with different cables on their 40k dollar Klippel system. We were all surprised when we saw it, but yes it's there.

It's similar with DAPs, almost every single DAP, DAC, and amp measures ruler flat. But they don't sound the same, not in the slightest bit.

Sorry to derail the thread, but here are just my thoughts. Not intending to start a debate and wreck this thread, but I Guess what I'm trying to say is this:

Listen for yourself and if you hear an improvement, good on you, if you think it's worth it, go for it. If you listen and it sounds the same whether it's a 5 dollar cable or a 1000 dollar cable, then good on you too, save the money!

Yeah it's like fairies, not because we cannot see them that they don't exist.

 

[Brooko]

Can I suggest we end the cable debate / discussion now.  I replied to WCDchee by PM.
 
Suggest we all get back to actually discussing the Andromeda and Nova.  Hopefully i get to hear the Nova in a couple of weeks.  I'm looking forward to it.