[Sonic Defender]

Thanks SD - that helps me understand the process. I like those resistors though. I completely get what you mean about the sense of a dedicated / designed headphone amp. Even in my tiny exposure to the world of headphone amps (only creek, pro-ject, little dot I, Heresy, recently Asgard 3 and Zen Can - I can see the possibilities and I haven't even scratched the surface. While I am not a technically equipped person - I was able to follow your explanation and it has helped me understand things better. A puzzle solved. I was wondering about the 'degradation' issue / interference / distrotion - and I easily love my old exposure 2010 (NOT the S model) - but the NAD carries the ifi zen DAC pretty well.

So many ways to get to where we want to go so enjoy the journey. There are now quite a few excellent headphone amplifiers that are very competent and certainly by way of comparison to the recent past when it wasn't the case normally, also quite affordable. I had been a fan of dedicated headphone amps and if it wasn't for the fact that I just wanted to use my NAD M3 as a headphone amp, I would have remained a user of a dedicated headamp no questions. Mind you, with the M3 I cannot imagine any headphone amp being better so I am happy that I now have one less component to deal with. Still, at times I miss the joy of researching and making a decision and then the sheer joy of getting a new shiny box to play with. I may yet still get a headphone amp even if I don't need one.

 

[headphonefranz]

So many ways to get to where we want to go so enjoy the journey. There are now quite a few excellent headphone amplifiers that are very competent and certainly by way of comparison to the recent past when it wasn't the case normally, also quite affordable. I had been a fan of dedicated headphone amps and if it wasn't for the fact that I just wanted to use my NAD M3 as a headphone amp, I would have remained a user of a dedicated headamp no questions. Mind you, with the M3 I cannot imagine any headphone amp being better so I am happy that I now have one less component to deal with. Still, at times I miss the joy of researching and making a decision and then the sheer joy of getting a new shiny box to play with. I may yet still get a headphone amp even if I don't need one.

You have perfectly given the old ‚the journey is the destination‘ adage full and true meaning. My addictive / obsessive tendencies are well served by the world of headphones and their amplification - loudspeakers too but headphones especially. This objective / subjective thing - and cables! My wife sometimes tells me to stop fondling cables.
Of course - it‘s all about the music though. A love affair with music and the infinite layers of sound (recording). What‘s your most memorable headphone amp (and headphone) experience to date?

 

[Sonic Defender]

... What‘s your most memorable headphone amp (and headphone) experience to date?

I think it would be when I owned an SPL Auditor and I had both the HD650 and DT880 600ohm as my main headphones at that time. I thought the Auditor was such a transparent amp and it seemed to have the perfect ability to control the drivers so well, especially with the DT880 which was not an easy headphone to drive well.

In fact, as much as I loved the Auditor, it didn't even have quite enough power for the DT880, almost, but not quite enough to get it to the listening level I preferred. Back then I listened quite loud. I still do, but I have turned it down a little since then. I can remember there was this great song (Come Inside) by the Chemical Brothers off the album Push The Button that had this really interesting detail where a sample trailed off into a deep bass rumble deep into the background. Only with the Auditor and DT880 could I follow that sample from beginning until it disappeared into the songs background.

There are many great experiences, but I have always remembered that particular one.

 

[headphonefranz]

I think it would be when I owned an SPL Auditor and I had both the HD650 and DT880 600ohm as my main headphones at that time. I thought the Auditor was such a transparent amp and it seemed to have the perfect ability to control the drivers so well, especially with the DT880 which was not an easy headphone to drive well.

In fact, as much as I loved the Auditor, it didn't even have quite enough power for the DT880, almost, but not quite enough to get it to the listening level I preferred. Back then I listened quite loud. I still do, but I have turned it down a little since then. I can remember there was this great song (Come Inside) by the Chemical Brothers off the album Push The Button that had this really interesting detail where a sample trailed off into a deep bass rumble deep into the background. Only with the Auditor and DT880 could I follow that sample from beginning until it disappeared into the songs background.

There are many great experiences, but I have always remembered that particular one.

There are many great experiences, but I have always remembered that particular one.





I’m glad I asked. SPL look like an amazing company. On a mission. I can imagine the quality of the experience with the Auditor – I hadn’t listened to Chemical Brothers for ages – so went o Quboz and gave Come Inside a whirl. Funny thing is I was just deliberating letting go o my DT880s (only 250 Ohms mind). I just discovered Grado and have to justisfy new experiences / acquisitions by letting go of stuff too. Even the 880s at 250 Ohms aren’t that easy to drive / gain full satisfaction from. I always feel good with the HD 600 & 650 and aren’t ready or willing to part company with the, The 650 were my first experience of decent headphone experience (second hand purchase on ebay).

So anyway – you inspired me to go on a music trip. I listened to come inside with the Grado RS2e (L-cushions) – I have a very modest selection of gear – so off I went with Come Inside first on the Zen Cans, then Asgar 3, then the NAD 3130 (HP socket) and finally on LittleDotMkI.I enjoyed every iteration – all in different ways and I finally became friends with the Asgar (which I just got but have been unable to enjoy fully).

The DAC/Amp is the Zen Signature.

The I too the DT880 – on the Zen Can (almost max gain + throttle wide open) – that was a trip .. I was amazed by the multi-dimensionality, the cavernous sound experience (Chem Bros intention I guess). I had truly enjoyed the Grado experience – but with the L-cushion and the Grado thing – cavernous wasn’t the experience – but it sure was with the DT800.

I checked it out twice and confirmed this experience. They also worked in a similar fashion on the Asgard 3 but even with only the 250 Ohm – the Asgard was struggling and falling a few hairs short. But also very enjoyable.

Where the Grados had also worked well on the NAD and definitely more than well on the Little Dot (Yugo tubes) – the DT880 weren’t having any of it – they refused to be listenable.
I respected this and stopped the experiment.

Basically – I cannot bring myself to part with the DTTs now. I have made friends with the Asgar 3 and see / hear the Come Inside track as extraordinarily good – a superb mix. So thanks! I checked out the NAD you have – and smell trouble (for me!)

The thing is – it’s all about the music and the amazing things we can experience hearing it.

 

[ScareDe2]

According to «science», amplifiers don't make a difference. So what you get here are amazingly built vintage amplifiers packed with quality components and a big punch of power at a low price.

 

[headphonefranz]

Not really, there are no separate headphone amplifier circuits in those integrated amps. They have simple resistor banks in between the speaker terminal output that feeds the headphone input. You actually are quite likely to get a degree of sound degradation that way (for instance the reported warmth for the NAD 3130 which I have also owned). That isn't to say that the sound will be bad, not at all, but in all likelihood, aside from power output, a well designed, dedicated headphone amplifier will provide the best performance with headphones. Of course there are multiple factors at play, but if all else is equal, and a dedicated headamp has enough power for the load, and is well designed, it will perform better than an integrated amplifiers headphone section which 99% of the time will just be resistors.

This is coming from somebody who uses a 180W NAD M3 as my headphone amp, but I don't have any yucky resistors in the way, I had a dedicated speaker tap cable made so that my headphones are powered directly from the speaker output of the amp. And to put that whole myth of the "extra" power advantage to rest. That is hogwash. If you have unused power it will provide absolutely zero value to you, there is no bonus for unused watt, that is just a completely unfounded myth.

As long as your amp has the headroom to swing and provide the burst power requests that the load requires, not a single extra electron of power will flow. So if you think having extra unused watts beyond what you need for dynamic power bursts (headroom) is doing anything for the sound, think again. Unused power is simply unused power, and I have had 180W behind my headphones for probably 8 years now so if anybody should be buying into that myth it would be me. Enough power is enough power.

„ had a dedicated speaker tap cable made so that my headphones are powered directly from the speaker output of the amp“

What headphones do the specially created cables connect to? I get the logic of resisting the resistors. Is the NAD M3 your ‚endgame‘ amp?

 

[Sonic Defender]

„ had a dedicated speaker tap cable made so that my headphones are powered directly from the speaker output of the amp“

What headphones do the specially created cables connect to? I get the logic of resisting the resistors. Is the NAD M3 your ‚endgame‘ amp?

I had a few different adapter sections made to accommodate various headphones. The original cable was designed for my then HE560 which was a first gen with SMC connectors. Then I had an adapter made to accept a 1/4" jack that could be used with either 2.5 or 3.5mm dual cup connectors. I was able to use many different headphones this way and I did of course over the years drive I am sure 10 different headphones, probably more using this cable.

The NAD M3 is a pretty amazing piece of kit for sure and according to many pretty in the know people it is technically quite competent. Certainly does everything that I could ask from it. One particularly nice feature of it is that it has a preamplifier out section that allows me to send out a signal to my two subs while also having a hardware crossover that I use to shelf my main speakers so that they don't receive any signal below 40Hz. Seems to make a great deal of difference offloading the hardest to produce, low bass to two nice 12" sub woofers (SVS SB2000 Pro). I like to run dual subs. So yes, I guess the M3 can be end game for me although I am likely to want to try some of the more accomplished class D amps and maybe try a 5.1 system. Hard to say though.

 

[SpeakerBox]

I think it would be when I owned an SPL Auditor and I had both the HD650 and DT880 600ohm as my main headphones at that time. I thought the Auditor was such a transparent amp and it seemed to have the perfect ability to control the drivers so well, especially with the DT880 which was not an easy headphone to drive well.

In fact, as much as I loved the Auditor, it didn't even have quite enough power for the DT880, almost, but not quite enough to get it to the listening level I preferred. Back then I listened quite loud. I still do, but I have turned it down a little since then. I can remember there was this great song (Come Inside) by the Chemical Brothers off the album Push The Button that had this really interesting detail where a sample trailed off into a deep bass rumble deep into the background. Only with the Auditor and DT880 could I follow that sample from beginning until it disappeared into the songs background.

There are many great experiences, but I have always remembered that particular one.

For me it would be a restored HK330A off the speaker taps and my restored Fisher 400 receiver.

 

[Sonic Defender]

For me it would be a restored HK330A off the speaker taps and my restored Fisher 400 receiver.

Nice choices, although I have read that even restored, which can be very hard if not impossible due to transistors no longer being available, the architecture of the HK330A transformer is such that it struggles with lower resistance loads, so driving 4ohm speakers would be quite a challenge. Now if you were only going to drive headphones from the speaker terminals, different game I imagine.

Still for me, given the difficulty in sourcing parts for vintage devices, and this is only going to get worse not better, I would personally find a more current design and utilize that, but without a doubt some of these vintage units are spectacular beauties and I can absolutely get the love for them.

 

[SpeakerBox]

Nice choices, although I have read that even restored, which can be very hard if not impossible due to transistors no longer being available, the architecture of the HK330A transformer is such that it struggles with lower resistance loads, so driving 4ohm speakers would be quite a challenge. Now if you were only going to drive headphones from the speaker terminals, different game I imagine.

Still for me, given the difficulty in sourcing parts for vintage devices, and this is only going to get worse not better, I would personally find a more current design and utilize that, but without a doubt some of these vintage units are spectacular beauties and I can absolutely get the love for them.

Audiokarma is full of options for complete restoration of both the HK and Fisher. That said you are right about 4 ohm speakers on the HK. Right now I only drive HD600 off the taps so good to go.

 

[VinMAC]

Do you know, if the old HK630 has also problems with 4 Ohm speakers? thanks.

 

[KG Jag]

According to the manual the HK630 can play a single pair of 4 Ohm speakers, but not two pair. You can download the manual here--free with signing up:

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/harman-kardon/hk630.shtml

 

[VinMAC]

thanks a lot!

 

[SpeakerBox]

Do you know, if the old HK630 has also problems with 4 Ohm speakers? thanks.

Yes, and I believe even the 330A is OK with a single 4 ohm load.

 

[VinMAC]

Yes, and I believe even the 330A is OK with a single 4 ohm load.

O.k. but with only one pair of 4 Ohm Speakers and not so loud Level should work, I hope!