Cable Truths and Myths.
Oct 22, 2009 at 10:57 PM Post #121 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
As pointed out previously, discussions of DBT's are prohibited on this forum and are confined to the Sound Science forum.


Then threads titled "Cable Truths and Myths" shouldn't be allowed here either.

se
 
Oct 22, 2009 at 11:21 PM Post #122 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Then threads titled "Cable Truths and Myths" shouldn't be allowed here either.



I agree, at least with respect to this thread and in light of the OP's initial intent. See post #9 above.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 12:19 AM Post #123 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by tvrboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Wrong.

Garments have an infinite variation of quality levels and construction techniques. I once spent a whole semester studying these in an apparel analysis class, and many engineers, scientists, and technicians devote their lives to developing high-quality garments. To use your example, there are a lot of differences between a $20 sweater and $500 sweater. The stiches per inch, strength of thread used, grade of wool, seam allowances, stitching, carding/combing and other finishing techniques, etc. You can even tell the difference on T-shirts. A high quality T-shirt will have very different seams and construction than a low-quality T-shirt.

Of course, quality in garments is often unrelated to price. You're right that most fasion labels slap their logo on a T-shirt and sell it for ridiculous prices. In fact most of these T-shirts are made by the same companies who also sell no-label $20 shirts. But quality clothes will always cost more. You're paying for better fabric, more thread (more stiches per inch), finishing techniques, labor time (more complicated stitching requires more time), and extra fabric for big seam allowances. Sorry, but you can't sell a very high-quality sweater that will last for years for $20 unless you use slave labor. Sure a cheap sweater will keep you warm, but it will itch, pill, unravel, and fall apart in a year.

On a side note, when you buy from a fashion label, a lot of what you are paying for is a nice fit. High-fashion clothes do tend to fit much better than low-end stuff, which is designed to fit as wide a range of body types (read: fat people) as possible. Like, I could buy dress pants for 50RMB, but I buy pants that cost 400RMB because they fit my body perfectly. I am active all day (I'm a teacher) and it's worth it to have something that is very comfortable for me. You can also get clothes tailored to fit better, it's cheap and I do it all the time.



What I'm getting at are the basics. If you want warmth and protection from the elements, then very inexpensive clothing will work fine. If your car broke down in the middle of a blizzard, a cheaply made coat will keep you warm every bit as well as a stylish $2,000 one with impeccably stitched lining.

It is the same with cables. Electrons do not give a whit about style. They're going from A to B and that's about it.

A cheap cable might corrode or otherwise fail, but until that happens, it will conduct electricity as well as a stylish cable.

I've always advocated the use of well-made cables that will hold up over the years. But it's silly to buy the haute couture cable because the electrons don't care.

Fashion is a human construct and does not change the laws of physics. If you want to play dress up with your cables to impress others, that's fine. But don't tell me that a parka from Wal-Mart is useless in a snow storm.

All the detail about construction, fit, et al. is precisely like cables. There's endless marketing over helical wound this, silver plated that, and all of that nonsense. If you're just trying to keep the sun off your head, a $5 cap does the same thing as a $4,000 hat. The $5 might come apart at the seams after a few weeks, but until it does, it will protect you from the sun.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 1:00 AM Post #124 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I agree, at least with respect to this thread and in light of the OP's initial intent. See post #9 above.


Initial Intent:please Explain.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 1:45 AM Post #125 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by ford2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Initial Intent:please Explain.


I wasn't accusing you of anything sinister or anything.
smile.gif
What I meant was that your initial intent was to have people read an article, and that article basically sets forth some of the types of arguments (some of which are inflammatory), and references to DBT-type tests, that basically have been relegated to the Sound Science forum.

So basically, I was suggesting that, while theoretically, one could have a thread on this forum regarding cable "truths and myths" that didn't delve into controversial areas, a thread referencing the article at issue does, IMO.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 1:56 AM Post #126 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It is the same with cables. Electrons do not give a whit about style. They're going from A to B and that's about it.
A cheap cable might corrode or otherwise fail, but until that happens, it will conduct electricity as well as a stylish cable.



It's laughable that so many otherwise intelligent people fall for the hype. Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I've always advocated the use of well-made cables that will hold up over the years. But it's silly to buy the haute couture cable because the electrons don't care.


Why do so many think the laws of physics and electricity somehow don't apply to audio? There is science that is far from settled, but this is not it. Mankind hasn't found out anything new about the flow of electrons in generations.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Fashion is a human construct and does not change the laws of physics. If you want to play dress up with your cables to impress others, that's fine.


LOL! Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
All the detail about construction, fit, et al. is precisely like cables. There's endless marketing over helical wound this, silver plated that, and all of that nonsense.


Some seem to think there's some mystical yet undiscovered force which can cause some interconnects to sound better. Fools and money are soon parted.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 2:12 AM Post #127 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I wasn't accusing you of anything sinister or anything.
smile.gif
What I meant was that your initial intent was to have people read an article, and that article basically sets forth some of the types of arguments (some of which are inflammatory), and references to DBT-type tests, that basically have been relegated to the Sound Science forum.

So basically, I was suggesting that, while theoretically, one could have a thread on this forum regarding cable "truths and myths" that didn't delve into controversial areas, a thread referencing the article at issue does, IMO.



Fair Enough:By the way if a mod wants to move it then move it.It makes no difference to the thread if its here or somewhere else.
The original posting was as mentioned for people with open minds,to read the articles if they so wished,and to decide if it had merit.
If people would like to point me to similar articles on how cables do have an impact I would be only to happy to read it.
If anyone is of the opinion that it was meant to start a flame war then get it LOCKED now.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 2:31 AM Post #128 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by ford2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If anyone is of the opinion that it was meant to start a flame war then get it LOCKED now.


Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It's laughable that so many otherwise intelligent people fall for the hype.

* * *
Fools and money are soon parted.



'Nuff said.

Basically, certain topics are just bound to cause trouble. I could start a post about religion or politics without intending to start a flame war, but a flame war is going to take place anyway. Same thing with these types of discussions. One can start a very polite discussion, or refer people to an article for consideration, but certain people can't resist poking fun at others, when they don't need to do so. But they can't help themselves.

Personally, I stay out of the Sound Science forum because of what goes on there, and I know quite a few other members do that also. They come to this specific forum to discuss cables without the stuff that infiltrates the discussions about cables in the Sound Science forum.

I would also say, as far as this thread being moved, that's probably a good idea, although not a big deal to me. I just wish some folks could discuss these things, though, without trying to be insulting. There's no need for it. Indeed, though I am probably somewhat in the "believer" camp, I am quite confident I could construct a very cogent argument that cables do not make an audible difference without suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with me is a moron, a "flat earther," a UFO fanatic, etc.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 3:08 AM Post #129 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Mankind hasn't found out anything new about the flow of electrons in generations.


Don't tell that to Bardeen, Cooper and Schrieffer.

se

nodualxlr.gif
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 4:06 AM Post #130 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It is the same with cables. Electrons do not give a whit about style. They're going from A to B and that's about it.


Electrons do however care about the conductor they're on, as well as other electrons and magnetic fields that's nearby (and maybe not even nearby at all). There'll always be noise and interference from outside, however minute, that just as easily changes the signal cleaniness. That said, even two conductors carrying current next to each other will effect each other. Precisely what happens in common audio cables. And this applies to every conductor, really.

It's one thing to say that well made cables just have to carry good signal, but the way it's made and the materials it's made from also dictates how well it'll carry the signal. We don't have a hundred different ways to build cables for no reason, afterall.

I see it as this: ideally, a cable will have no flaws. It's just that there is no absolutely perfectly built cable, and people are simply putting money exponentially into how close they can get to perfection. And only things left to argue is which cable to use for which application, why it applies well enough for that application, and how much it costs to get as close to that ideal cable.

That said, for my setup and way the source and noise around me and headphones are, there's no good reason for me to invest in anything more than a shielded stranded copper cabling, with smooth plastic outside. Perhaps it's different for someone who lives next to lots of microwave ovens, or have mains power humming issues, or the equipment is sensitive enough to pick up noise from a nearby phone line! So on and so forth.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 4:27 AM Post #131 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorentz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
there's no good reason for me to invest in anything more than a shielded stranded copper cabling, with smooth plastic outside. Perhaps it's different for someone who lives next to lots of microwave ovens, or have mains power humming issues, or the equipment is sensitive enough to pick up noise from a nearby phone line! So on and so forth.


The cable is either shielded properly or it isn't. There are Radio Shack cables that will shield as well as any with a couple more digits in the price tag.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 4:37 AM Post #132 of 261
oatmeal769;6104559 said:
Why restrict it simply to there? I don't think anyone new to the sport is going there first to ask "Hey you guys, are those fancy cables worth it?"

Um, Some of those cables have connectors that are Gold, Silver, Rhodium, Palladium, and what ever else. Are made with pure Silver wire, silver plated copper or sometimes cryo treated. To some of us it does make a difference. They all sound different to me. hooray for me!
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 4:48 AM Post #133 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The cable is either shielded properly or it isn't. There are Radio Shack cables that will shield as well as any with a couple more digits in the price tag.


Arguable. Thickness of shielding, material of shielding, wieved/braided wires or foil-based, if wieved how well it's wieved, etc. Agreed on fact that "couple more digits" cables aren't very different from radioshack cables, however. As I said before, "how much it costs to get as close to that ideal cable". Ideal cable here being a thin, wieve shielded stranded copper cable.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 4:49 AM Post #134 of 261
Here are some of my cable experiences I'd like to share:

When I was a senior in high school in 1990, I had some 18ga lamp cord connecting a Tandberg receiver to Celestion SL12Si speakers. One day I went to The Good Guys and bought some 12ga name brand speaker cable to replace the lamp cord. I was excited to try it. When I got it home and listened, it didn't sound immediately better to me. In fact, I actually thought it sounded worse.

I went to college in Pasadena, and one of my pleasures was visiting GNP Audio just up the street. In the spring of 1991 I had some extra money to spend, having earned it in a economics department experiment. I went to GNP with the hidden plan to buy a set of interconnect cables to go between my cd player and amp. The owner then, Alan, played me their mid level system. Then he said he was going to make a change. All the gear was behind me and I couldn't see what he did. He then played the same music again. I commented, "it sounds better, did you change one of the components?" He replied that he changed the cable between the cd player and preamp. It was a MIT cable, one without the filter box. I think the price was $75 so I decided to buy it.

Fast forward to December 2002. I'm preparing to exhibit at CES for the first time. A dealer friend arranged one of his favorite cable brands to loan me a complete set of cables for the show. At the time I owned Tara Labs RSC Reference. I swapped out all the interconnect cables and replaced them with the new stuff. I powered up the hi-fi and hit play. To my surprise, it sounded different and better. Do note that I didn't change 1 set of cables but 5.

From my experiences, if there is a difference to be heard, be it a new amp, dac, etc., it will be most obvious to you when you first introduce the change into a system with which you're intimately familiar.
 
Oct 23, 2009 at 4:54 AM Post #135 of 261
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorentz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Arguable. Thickness of shielding, material of shielding, wieved/braided wires or foil-based, if wieved how well it's wieved, etc. Agreed on fact that "couple more digits" cables aren't very different from radioshack cables, however. As I said before, "how much it costs to get as close to that ideal cable". Ideal cable here being a thin, wieve shielded stranded copper cable.


Inexpensive audio interconnect cables usually use a central wire for the signal and outside braid double duty for ground and shield. Better cables have separate wires for the signal and ground, both contained within a shield that is terminated on one end, usually the downstream end. Many inexpensive braid-only cables are not 100% shield - the braid is not tight weave. For 100% it needs to be very tight and often also includes a foil wrap.
 

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