[oatmeal769]

I posted the answers to my testing on DAC's today as well.


THE GREAT "PSA DL-III DAC vs. TIANYUN ZERO DAC" SHOOT-OUT

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[Happy Camper]

oatmeal,

Did the Cardas cable make a difference in your HD600s?

Go to one of many member's mini meets or host it yourself. There's a lot of Head Fiers in the basin. It's always best to hear things in your rig.

 

[oatmeal769]

Can't say for sure. I certainly thought it did - before I'd done my homework. About the only way it could though is if the original cable was too thin to allow for proper damping, I really doubt it though... I have the charts to find out, maybe I'll look tomorrow...

One thing certainly, it coils and lays very nicely, although I think a good Mogami Microphone cable would do that as well. I ended up soldering on a better Neutrik connector than what came with it, just for look and feel. The cable certainly is well shielded.

 

[El_Doug]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif What about the labor cost?

you typically do not account for labor costs in a 1-man operation. 100% of the time worked is your own, and you can thus simply price according to desired earnings.


edit: since my highest ever paying job was $10/hour (pastry cook), I suppose that means I should add $1.67 for my 10 minutes of time

 

[tamahome77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif oatmeal, Did the Cardas cable make a difference in your HD600s? Go to one of many member's mini meets or host it yourself. There's a lot of Head Fiers in the basin. It's always best to hear things in your rig.

From experience, I can testify that the cardas cable made a noticeable improvement over the stock cable in the sound of the HD600 that I used to own. It was a worthwhile investment and the sound improvement would be more convincing if one were to experience it first hand.

On the other hand, I couldn't differentiate the differences between no name power cords and brand name ones.

 

[Donald North]

For those curious about the audibility (or lack thereof) of interconnect cable differences, a good comparison would be between a higher capacitance, shielded copper cable (like the Cardas Quadlink) and a lower capacitance, unshielded silver cable (like the Kimber KCAG).

 

[fishski13]

a good read:
http://www.audioxpress.com/reviews/media/704hansen.pdf

 

[Seamaster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamahome77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif From experience, I can testify that the cardas cable made a noticeable improvement over the stock cable in the sound of the HD600 that I used to own. It was a worthwhile investment and the sound improvement would be more convincing if one were to experience it first hand. On the other hand, I couldn't differentiate the differences between no name power cords and brand name ones.

With annalog system like mine, difference between power cord very noticable

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Doug /img/forum/go_quote.gif you typically do not account for labor costs in a 1-man operation. 100% of the time worked is your own, and you can thus simply price according to desired earnings. edit: since my highest ever paying job was $10/hour (pastry cook), I suppose that means I should add $1.67 for my 10 minutes of time

Your response on the previous page containing an itemization (albeit incomplete) of costs was in response to someone else who suggested that one could not make "a lot of money" in the cable business. If you think "making a lot of money" means making $100 or so on one cable, or making $100 on an investment of $300 to $400 every time you make a cable (not counting labor costs), then maybe you should try the business. But it wouldn't be worth it to a lot of folks..

P.S. One does need to account for labor costs in a 1-man operation. It's called "opportunity cost." And you can't just price "according to desired earnings" in a competitive market. You can only charge what the market will bear. And, finally, I think it's quite an exaggeration to suggest total labor time associated with a cable enterprise would work out to 10 minutes of time per cable. You have to include time involved in fabrication, marketing, the purchase and sale process, communicating with the purchaser, shipping the product, resolving complaints, etc., etc. It's bound to add up pretty quick.

 

[El_Doug]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif One does need to account for labor costs in a 1-man operation. It's called "opportunity cost." And you can't just price "according to desired earnings" in a competitive market. You can only charge what the market will bear. And, finally, I think it's quite an exaggeration to suggest total labor time associated with a cable enterprise would work out to 10 minutes of time per cable. You have to include time involved in fabrication, marketing, the purchase and sale process, communicating with the purchaser, shipping the product, resolving complaints, etc., etc. It's bound to add up pretty quick.

opportunity cost is an economic tool - it is not a real cost that is accounted for, and I guarantee you'll never see it on any financial statement or management accounting documents

you're right that in a normal market, of which one parameter is having reasonable consumers, pure competition would dictate price. in audio, especially with regard to cables, what you are selling is prestige and ego-boosts, and the consumers are very far from reasonable. take a look at Virtual Dynamics' garden hose, home depot wire, and sand blasting particles, for example - if those who heard this cable swear by a sonic improvement, I would estimate that it does not take much to create a world-class audio cable. the market certainly will bear quite a bit, as can be seen all around us! heck, if I took the time to mill some brass, I could probably sell a single $500 cable for $8000.

btw - if you think a 25% return on investment is "not worth it," PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give me the name of your broker

i do not think it was hard to figure out that the 10 minutes of time allotted was for only the cable construction - but play dumb if you wish

i'll add more time, to satisfy your requirements:

- copy/paste key words from stereophile reviews, to create a b.s. jargon blurb about the cable: 5 minutes
- answer an email making outrageous claims, beating around the bush or flat out ignoring real questions : 2 minutes
- click "print shipping label" from the paypal order form: 1 minute
- stuff cable into cardboard box, affix shipping label, and tape shut: 3 minutes
- drive to post office: 15 minutes (round trip)

26 more minutes of my time = $5.

factor in $1 for gasoline, $10 for the box and peanuts (being very liberal), and $1 for a twinkie snack to eat on the way


keep in mind that mine are "boutique" cables, and I don't run a huge production line. why? because everyone knows that the true high-end of audio cables must be "painstakingly" put together by hand, in order to pay attention to every detail

such few orders means I get to keep my full time job. by the end of the year, after creating enough fake extra accounts on several hi-fi forums, I will become FOTM in no time, with a backlog of orders pre-paid so that once word gets out that the cables do not live up to the hype, it is too late to do anything about it

I will of course be very careful with my words under these aliases, even offering slight criticisms about the product. of course, these will be along the lines of "poor WAF" and "unfortunately not as analytical as others may prefer," so that no one thinks the cons are worth their consideration.



I really may try this out sometime

 

[Happy Camper]

Sounds suspiciously like an amp maker or dozen.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Doug /img/forum/go_quote.gif opportunity cost is an economic tool - it is not a real cost that is accounted for, and I guarantee you'll never see it on any financial statement or management accounting documents you're right that in a normal market, of which one parameter is having reasonable consumers, pure competition would dictate price. in audio, especially with regard to cables, what you are selling is prestige and ego-boosts, and the consumers are very far from reasonable. take a look at Virtual Dynamics' garden hose, home depot wire, and sand blasting particles, for example - if those who heard this cable swear by a sonic improvement, I would estimate that it does not take much to create a world-class audio cable. the market certainly will bear quite a bit, as can be seen all around us! heck, if I took the time to mill some brass, I could probably sell a single $500 cable for $8000. btw - if you think a 25% return on investment is "not worth it," PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give me the name of your broker i do not think it was hard to figure out that the 10 minutes of time allotted was for only the cable construction - but play dumb if you wish i'll add more time, to satisfy your requirements: - copy/paste key words from stereophile reviews, to create a b.s. jargon blurb about the cable: 5 minutes - answer an email making outrageous claims, beating around the bush or flat out ignoring real questions : 2 minutes - click "print shipping label" from the paypal order form: 1 minute - stuff cable into cardboard box, affix shipping label, and tape shut: 3 minutes - drive to post office: 15 minutes (round trip) 26 more minutes of my time = $5. factor in $1 for gasoline, $10 for the box and peanuts (being very liberal), and $1 for a twinkie snack to eat on the way keep in mind that mine are "boutique" cables, and I don't run a huge production line. why? because everyone knows that the true high-end of audio cables must be "painstakingly" put together by hand, in order to pay attention to every detail such few orders means I get to keep my full time job. by the end of the year, after creating enough fake extra accounts on several hi-fi forums, I will become FOTM in no time, with a backlog of orders pre-paid so that once word gets out that the cables do not live up to the hype, it is too late to do anything about it I will of course be very careful with my words under these aliases, even offering slight criticisms about the product. of course, these will be along the lines of "poor WAF" and "unfortunately not as analytical as others may prefer," so that no one thinks the cons are worth their consideration. I really may try this out sometime

Wow. I disagree with virtually everything you say and imply in your post, and every one of your conclusions. Frankly, I think that some of things you say are downright ridiculous, with all due respect (perhaps several are tongue in cheek, though). In any event, I guess there's little point in discussing it further.

P.S. Maybe you really should try it out.

 

[ford2]

Gizmodo had this article from march 2008.Still makes me laugh.

Quote::

Whether or not Monster Cables are worth it is a war that has raged since home theater immemorial. A poster at Audioholics was put in a room with five fellow audiophiles, and a Martin Logan SL-3 speaker set at 75Db at 1000KHz playing a mix of "smooth, trio, easy listening jazz" that no one had heard before. In one corner, Monster 1000 speaker cables. In the other, four coat hangers twisted and soldered into a speaker cable.

Seven songs were played while the group was blindfolded and the cables swapped back and forth. Not only "after 5 tests, none could determine which was the Monster 1000 cable or the coat hanger wire," but no one knew a coat hanger was used in the first place.

Further, when music was played through the coat hanger wire, we were asked if what we heard sounded good to us. All agreed that what was heard sounded excellent, however, when A-B tests occured, it was impossible to determine which sounded best the majority of the time and which wire was in use.

 

[tvrboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's the fashion industry. Which seems eerily similar to the cable industry. Throwing together $20 of material can make a jacket that sells for $1,000. Which might not be technically better than a $40 coat at Wal-Mart. However, some will pay $960 more for that amazing logo. I'd say that the cable/tweak market is almost exactly the same as the fashion market. People buy fashion for prestige and status. Which is likely the same reason people pay big bucks for a cable. A $500 cashmere sweater won't keep you any warmer than a $20 sweatshirt, but the $500 sweater says something about the status of its wearer.

Wrong.

Garments have an infinite variation of quality levels and construction techniques. I once spent a whole semester studying these in an apparel analysis class, and many engineers, scientists, and technicians devote their lives to developing high-quality garments. To use your example, there are a lot of differences between a $20 sweater and $500 sweater. The stiches per inch, strength of thread used, grade of wool, seam allowances, stitching, carding/combing and other finishing techniques, etc. You can even tell the difference on T-shirts. A high quality T-shirt will have very different seams and construction than a low-quality T-shirt.

Of course, quality in garments is often unrelated to price. You're right that most fasion labels slap their logo on a T-shirt and sell it for ridiculous prices. In fact most of these T-shirts are made by the same companies who also sell no-label $20 shirts. But quality clothes will always cost more. You're paying for better fabric, more thread (more stiches per inch), finishing techniques, labor time (more complicated stitching requires more time), and extra fabric for big seam allowances. Sorry, but you can't sell a very high-quality sweater that will last for years for $20 unless you use slave labor. Sure a cheap sweater will keep you warm, but it will itch, pill, unravel, and fall apart in a year.

On a side note, when you buy from a fashion label, a lot of what you are paying for is a nice fit. High-fashion clothes do tend to fit much better than low-end stuff, which is designed to fit as wide a range of body types (read: fat people) as possible. Like, I could buy dress pants for 50RMB, but I buy pants that cost 400RMB because they fit my body perfectly. I am active all day (I'm a teacher) and it's worth it to have something that is very comfortable for me. You can also get clothes tailored to fit better, it's cheap and I do it all the time.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Gizmodo had this article from march 2008.Still makes me laugh.

As pointed out previously, discussions of DBT's are prohibited on this forum and are confined to the Sound Science forum.