[RMgX]

I am a chemist and I don't think the icecream anology is suitable. Yes there is a sensory difference between chocolate icecream and vanilla icecream, Yes the true sensory organ giving you a feeling is the brain.
This sensory diffence arise from the fact that the molecules giving taste in vanilla and chocolate have very different shape and size and chemical composition and they will connect differently to cells feeling taste or smell which will then send a signal to the brain. ( The scientific explanation is that the diffence that indeed exist between the molecules is sensed by the brain but it is the brain that actually tells you if there is a difference in TASTE,
hydrogen cyanide is supposed to smell like bitter almond and so is benzoic aldehyde, even if they are different the brain tells you they smell the same, so they do smell the same, preference is of course also a thing of the brain and varies from person to person ).
To every extent that they effect your senses you can also measure or simulate the differences between these molecules with various standard analytical methods.
We can also measure the difference in the chemical composition, width and length of the cable I don't think anyone argues against that.
What we listen to however is not the cable but the pressure variations in the air which in turn comes from an alternating current.
What people are arguing is that the effects on the current from the different materials like silver and copper are so small compared to the effects of the speaker element, and if we meassure the difference it is indeed small, contrary to the difference between vanilla and chocolate.
I am not saying the cable believers are neccesarily wrong as I havn't tried those cables but I would be suprised if the effect comes only from resistance differences.Perhaps things like the alternating current giving rise to other currents in the cables around it are of a larger importance and things like twisting or shielding the cable are of more importance than than if they are silver or copper,I don't know really.
I am sure if you really tried though you could measure whatever gives rise to the sonic differences ( provided they are there ofcourse ). It is possible to messure both pressure and currents accurately.

 

[grawk]

I'm surprised this is a debate. Of course cables make a difference. The level of difference and the value of said difference is debatable, but there are quantifiable differences between cables electrically. The quality of connectors, cabling, soldering, etc are all significant influences on music. To prove it to yourself, assuming minor soldering skill, pick up a used pair of decent cans (I used Sony V6s), and replace the cable to one ear with a single pair from a cat 5 cable. Listen. You'll hear a tonal difference between the left and right ears. Swap the cans, so that you're sure it's not your ears that are different.

 

[EdipisReks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk I'm surprised this is a debate. Of course cables make a difference. The level of difference and the value of said difference is debatable, but there are quantifiable differences between cables electrically. The quality of connectors, cabling, soldering, etc are all significant influences on music. To prove it to yourself, assuming minor soldering skill, pick up a used pair of decent cans (I used Sony V6s), and replace the cable to one ear with a single pair from a cat 5 cable. Listen. You'll hear a tonal difference between the left and right ears. Swap the cans, so that you're sure it's not your ears that are different.

your anecdote is meaningless, as it has no controls. i am more than happy to help you design a blind test, though you will need the help of a couple friends to perform it and another set of Sony V6's, perferably burnt in the same approximate amount as your current cans, to do it. if the difference in cabling is that obvious it should overcome the slight differences between the two cans, so the fact that two sets of cans are being used should result in an acceptable margin of error.

 

[EdipisReks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomcat Yup. Most theories work much better if we make reality fit the theory - and not the other way around. So, talking about perceivable phenomena is a moot point anyway as long as we cannot fully explain them. That's one cool scientific approach, EdipisReks. Love it.

you misunderstood (willfully, perhaps?) what i typed, and took that passage out of context. the reason why it is moot to me, and why i don't understand it, is because nobody who believes in cable material differences has ever given a mechanism for why there is that supposed difference. if anyone who believes in special cables can come up with a testable hypothesis, it would go a long way to legitimizing it to those that believe in the scientific method. as soon as the sonic differences can be shown to be real in a verifiable scientific double blind test i will start believing in the phenomena and i will start spending money on IC's and headphone cables. until that happens, i don't understand the phenomena and i believe the point is moot.

 

[plainsong]

Sometimes the scietific method can be applied in meaningless ways.

Here's my scientific method: Have no biases... see a pair of headphones with a blue cable and say "gee I wonder what those sound like?" Plug in and hear for myself. Then try another set of cables and say "Gee I wonder what these sound like?" Listen to said cables.. let my ears decide.

Remember the role of the brain. The ears just relay the information. The brain is what draws the conclusion. Preconception effects this. Remember conclusions can include value of improvement.

The step where you don't have biases is an important one, but no amount of scientific method is going to tell me what my ears already know. Our ears are powerful tools. Train them. Trust them.

I'm not belittling the would-be scientists reading this, but this is music, but there are many things in music that cannot be measure by scientific method. Your ears count!

 

[EdipisReks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong Sometimes the scietific method can be applied in meaningless ways. Here's my scientific method: Have no biases... see a pair of headphones with a blue cable and say "gee I wonder what those sound like?" Plug in and hear for myself. Then try another set of cables and say "Gee I wonder what these sound like?" Listen to said cables.. let my ears decide. Remember the role of the brain. The ears just relay the information. The brain is what draws the conclusion. Preconception effects this. Remember conclusions can include value of improvement. The step where you don't have biases is an important one, but no amount of scientific method is going to tell me what my ears already know. Our ears are powerful tools. Train them. Trust them. I'm not belittling the would-be scientists reading this, but this is music, but there are many things in music that cannot be measure by scientific method. Your ears count!

this isn't how the brain works. bias appears both in the conscious and subconscious mind. the fact that you say "i wonder what these sound like" displays bias, as you are biased towards the idea that cables make a palpable difference in overall sound quality. you also can't forget about preconcieved notions derived from memory. perhaps you once heard a pair of headphones or speakers that you really liked that had blue cables. you may not consciously remember this, yet the memory would create a bias which would effect your "test".

the ears can be trusted no more than any other sense, because, as you say, they simply relay information to the brain. the brain's ability to analyze qualia is not just a product of conscious thought, it is always being effected by previous experience, whether those previous experiences are recognized or not. the only way to make an educated decision on this kind of thing is to do a controlled blind test, because it negates these conscious and unconscious biases. to make a decision, especially when denying bias, is only going to cause flawed decisions. i have now said my piece on this overal topic. if ayone wants help designing a double blind test, send me a PM

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdipisReks the only way to make an educated decision on this kind of thing is to do a controlled blind test, because it negates these conscious and unconscious biases. to make a decision, especially when denying bias, is only going to cause flawed decisions.

That conclusion reflects your value system and preferences. If you decide that the science means so much to you that you are not going to try aftermarket cables until someone proves scientifically that they can make an audbile difference, that's up to you. But I believe, and many, many others do also, that it is possible to make an "educated decision" by listening. I know my system sounds better with the cable changes I have made. It doesn't take golden ears to hear a reduction in sibilance, for example, and to say that my brain is just deluding me into hearing things is just silly at some point.

I would also venture to say that the vast majority of people who have spent significant time with audio systems of high quality believe they hear cable differences. I mean, where are the people who can say they have listened to cables of many types in many systems of decent quality and can state that they have never heard a difference between any of the cables? Shouldn't there be a lot of EE types or other objectivists who have this experience, and who are smart enough not to be deluded by the placebo effect like the rest of us idiots, who can say they have listened extensively and their ears have confirmed it's all bunk? You just don't hear from many or any of these people. Instead, the staunchest supporters of the objectivist camp seem to be people who have never listened and who claim that they don't have to listen. This is rather telling, I think.

 

[warubozu]

I would agree with what has been said by PhilS and plainsong above, I personally don't need scientific proof to tell me I notice a sonic difference in various cables. What matters is I trust my own ears and know what sounds good to me.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdipisReks ...bias appears both in the conscious and subconscious mind. the fact that you say "i wonder what these sound like" displays bias, as you are biased towards the idea that cables make a palpable difference in overall sound quality.

Funny. It's exactly the other way around. When you say to yourself «I wonder what these sound like», your approach is unbiased -- you just have an open mind, without any expectations. But an approach like «I know that there can't be a difference, so I don't care» reflects a clear bias -- influenced by «science» or your interpretation of it, resp.

 

[Akuan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong but there are many things in music that cannot be measure by scientific method. Your ears count!

Your ears (or hearing) do count in a blind test, so what is wrong with this scientific method? Do you need your eyes for your ears to work correctly?
It is ironic that blind people has shown to have better hearing ability.

 

[Kirosia]

The audacity of some of these people . . . using their ears to decide. What's next? Trusting you eyes? Your feelings when it comes to love? Your intuition when it comes to guessing? Just cause I see a big purple alien giving me the finger in broad daylight, doesn't mean he's there. Oh no. Just cause I hear a jackhammer across the street, doesn't mean someone's doing construction outside. It may just be placebo. I need facts damnit. Seriously, trusting ourselves. What has this world come too . . .

I'll never get this. Since so much of thread regards the senn cables, why don't the naysayers TRY EM OUT first before trying to refute everyone else. I don't care if about facts, statistics, tests if I HEAR IT MYSELF. For everyone who hasn't heard the cables, please keep an open mind. It's not that hard. IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO HAS USED/LIVED WITH THE VARIOUS SENN CABLES AND BELIEVES THERE IS NO SONIC DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER?

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirosia IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO HAS USED/LIVED WITH THE VARIOUS SENN CABLES AND BELIEVES THERE IS NO SONIC DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER?

I came very close to doing that... I almost ordered a high end replacement cable for my HD-590s. Two things stopped me.

First of all, the inevitable replys of "You thought a cable wouldn't make a difference from the start, so you didn't give it a fair chance." and "You have the HD-590s... we were talking about the HD-650s." (You know that no matter what headphones I have, some variation of these two excuses would be used.

Secondly, I read the return policy on the Zu website. It stated that I was free to return the cable within a specified period of time, but went on to say that they were offering this because they were aware that some people had inferior equipment that wouldn't show an improvement using their cable. This is blatantly obvious card stacking. They refused to even consider the possibility that their cable would make no difference with good equipment. In order for me to return the cable, I have to agree with them that it's the fault of my equipment, not their cable. If they have to resort to convoluted logic like this, I don't believe a word they say anywhere on their website. I might as well be buying Brilliant Pebbles.

See ya
Steve

 

[some1x]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot I came very close to doing that... I almost ordered a high end replacement cable for my HD-590s. Two things stopped me. First of all, the inevitable replys of "You thought a cable wouldn't make a difference from the start, so you didn't give it a fair chance." and "You have the HD-590s... we were talking about the HD-650s." (You know that no matter what headphones I have, some variation of these two excuses would be used.

They are right

You have already decided that you won't hear a difference; and now you have anticipated how people will respond when you post that you didn't hear a difference

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot ...First of all, the inevitable replys of "You thought a cable wouldn't make a difference from the start, so you didn't give it a fair chance." and "You have the HD-590s... we were talking about the HD-650s." (You know that no matter what headphones I have, some variation of these two excuses would be used.

So what? Is the main goal of a cable test to please other people?

Quote:

Secondly, I read the return policy on the Zu website. It stated that I was free to return the cable within a specified period of time, but went on to say that they were offering this because they were aware that some people had inferior equipment that wouldn't show an improvement using their cable. This is blatantly obvious card stacking. They refused to even consider the possibility that their cable would make no difference with good equipment. In order for me to return the cable, I have to agree with them that it's the fault of my equipment, not their cable. If they have to resort to convoluted logic like this, I don't believe a word they say anywhere on their website. I might as well be buying Brilliant Pebbles.

Why care what Zu cable or anyone else could think about you and your equipment? For me testing gear is my personal audio adventure, and I coudn't care less if other peoople think I'm nuts to like this or dislike that...

So your interest to explore new sonic horizons simply isn't strong enough compared to your desire for harmony...

 

[eastside504]

I was like the naw sayers, cables dont make a difference. Then i got curious and decided to make a cable for my 650. First one was made from starquard cables and i honest thought it sounded bad, worest then the stock. But the thing was i heard a difference. Cables do change the sound, now is that change something you like? Is it worth the money? That's a different story. For those of you who havent heard a different cable yet, keep your mind open and mouth shut till you hear one. Then comment after you have tried it as to weather you hear it or not. Its like commenting on a headphone without hearing it first. Null and void anything you have to say.