[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ Why care what Zu cable or anyone else could think about you and your equipment?

Because card stacking like that shows that they aren't averse to twisting the truth. If they are willing to stack the deck against their own customers in their guarantee, why should I believe any of their claims in the product descriptions?

If you have a product that clearly serves a useful purpose, you present it honestly and clearly and let it sell itself. If it's a good product, you can safely guarantee satisfaction with no strings attached.

However, if you have to insist in advance that if the product doesn't work as described, it's MY FAULT for having crappy equipment, you aren't worth my trust. I'm don't do business with companies like that. It doesn't take an Einstein to wind a cable. I'll find someone that makes nice cables with more respect for their customers.

See ya
Steve

 

[blessingx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Secondly, I read the return policy on the Zu website. It stated that I was free to return the cable within a specified period of time, but went on to say that they were offering this because they were aware that some people had inferior equipment that wouldn't show an improvement using their cable. This is blatantly obvious card stacking. They refused to even consider the possibility that their cable would make no difference with good equipment. In order for me to return the cable, I have to agree with them that it's the fault of my equipment, not their cable. If they have to resort to convoluted logic like this, I don't believe a word they say anywhere on their website. I might as well be buying Brilliant Pebbles.

This is an insanely cynical reading of their return policy. First, it's called a 'No Hassle Satisfaction Guarantee'. They don't care. Send it back. You really don't have to forgo any promises you've made to god or country. Second, maybe they've tried the cable on a great deal of equipment. Third, they're being humorous. Fourth, if you can tell the difference easily between cables even underpowered (cable no where near weakest link), why wouldn't properly powered or better resolving equipment show off it's properties even more? I've heard Cardas or Zu cables on several Singlepower and Emmeline amps and have yet to hear the differences narrow. Just the opposite. Quote:

No Hassle Satisfaction Guarantee If you are not completely happy with any Zu product simply return it within 60 days and we'll refund the purchase price less shipping. This includes custom connectors and lengths. Our goal is to provide the best performing products on the planet. (Yes, we realize a few of you have systems that were designed by brain-def tone-dead martians and our cables cannot be expected to work miracles in such hi-fi creations. Even so, we will make your return experience painless, quick and easy.)

 

[bigshot]

I have tried many different speaker, RCA, video and instrument cables over the years. Despite the claims of audiophile cable manufacturers, the only difference in signal quality I have ever detected was when a cable shorted out. How are headphone cables different than any of those types of cables?

I have tripped over my headphone cable several times, yanking the cable out of its socket. Every time, I plug it back in and it sounds great. I don't know how much more I could hope for.

The first paragraph of the guarantee is great. The second is a deal breaker. Yes, they are trying to be cute and funny. I don't care. I find it insulting and deceptive. The guarantee to the customer is no place for a comment like that. It only reveals how they talk about their customers in private.

See ya
Steve

 

[eastside504]

Steve,
It seems you already made up your mind without even trying the cables. Using their return policy statement as a crutch for your opinion becuase you have no first hand experience to back up your point. There are other after market cable company or you can DIY a cable and see for yourself.

 

[ILikeMusic]

If they have to resort to convoluted logic like this, I don't believe a word they say anywhere on their website.

Forget the return policy and go to the technical section, you'll never see a more hysterically funny stream of pseudoscientific babble. Whatever their cables might do, the content of their website does not exactly leave one with an impression of credibility.

 

[fewtch]

There's no end to the subjectivist vs. objectivist bickering. However, I tend to side with the objectivists, and for this reason.

Look up, as the day goes by. It's perfectly obvious that the sun rotates around the earth, is it not? I mean, it moves from East to West and finally sets but we can't feel ourselves moving, so it must be rotating around the earth.

And the earth is flat, of course. How the hell could the earth be round? Just look as far as the eye can see, it's WAY obvious that we're living on a flat surface.

And of course, the stars are obviously very tiny, even a child can see that much just from looking at the sky at night.

Eyes, ears and mind can be easily fooled. Just go to a magic show. It's trivially easy to convince oneself of anything, and there's no 'safety in numbers' whatsoever, as the centuries-old belief that the sun rotates around the Earth shows. Thus, the usefulness of double-blind scientific tests when it comes to issues like this.

P.S. I'm basically a 'cable agnostic'. Never have performed any of those double-blind tests, so I have no proof one way or the other. I've heard apparent differences in cables, but I freely admit my ears could be fooling me based on a number of factors (brevity of auditory memory, expectation effects, etc).

 

[immtbiker]

There are no ifs, ands, or buts...cables make a huge difference. I challenge anyone to compare a pair of Bogdan Gold/Silver interconnects, to an equally expensive pair of Cardas Golden Reference interconnects, and say they don't hear a major "knock your socks off" difference. Let alone a pair of Radio Shack interconnects.
At the Maryland meet, last weekend, a great deal of people heard the Qualia 010's with the stock cable, then the Black Dragons, then the Black Dragons, that weren't burnt in (another debate), and the differences were astronomical. Anyone who says "wire is wire" needs to go to a place, like a meet, and do some comparisons, and then repost in this thread. Science cannot answer this enigma of this question, listening can.
Go to a Hi-Fi show and see what cables, component and speaker companies are using (not something in their selling lineup). They want their components to sound as good as possible, so people will buy their products, not because they have money to waste.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker There are no ifs, ands, or buts...cables make a huge difference.

If there were no ifs, ands or buts, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Agreed? Or did someone coronate you the grand high poobah of cables, and we all have to respect your authoritah?

Geez guys, Immtbiker has spoken... time to lock the thread and go home...

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker I challenge anyone to compare a pair of Bogdan Gold/Silver interconnects, to an equally expensive pair of Cardas Golden Reference interconnects, and say they don't hear a major "knock your socks off" difference.

As long as you intend on pursuing this line of reasoning... I challenge you to cut both those cables open, and prove there's nothing inside them but wire. If there were any electronic components in there, of course there could be a "knock your socks off" difference. It would also exclude them from the category we normally think of as cables.

 

[backdrifter]

edit

 

[immtbiker]

Grand high poobah? Is that from the Flintstones, or the Honeymooners?

No need to lock the thread. I'd like people who can do some head to head comparisons, to come back and repost.

If I took your challenge, Fewtch, and cut those cables open...I would be arrested by the high quality "knock your socks off" cable police, and I'd have to plead insanity, because all the magic dust would fall out!

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker No need to lock the thread. I'd like people who can do some head to head comparisons, to come back and repost.

IMO, without some certain things established, any head-to-head comparisons would be useless:

(1) There's nothing but wire inside any of the cables (maybe you're not cynical enough to believe a manufacturer could put sound-changing electronics in a cable, but I am).
(2) Carefully controlled environment (meets don't count -- we all know how unreliable listening impressions at meets can be).
(3) At minimum, "single blind" tests. You shouldn't be able to know which cable you're listening to, because such knowledge can bias you to prefer the sound of one over the other (i.e. factors other than sonic ones can influence you).

IMHO without the above, any such comparisons would not further this debate a single iota. Just my opinion.

 

[immtbiker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch (maybe you're not cynical enough to believe a manufacturer could put sound-changing electronics in a cable, but I am).

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch I challenge you to cut both those cables open, and prove there's nothing inside them but wire. If there were any electronic components in there, of course there could be a "knock your socks off" difference

Aren't these conflicting remarks? And a bit of a conspiracy theory, with no fact behind it?
I can see a component (headphone/cd player) being colored to taste, but a cable having sound-changing electronics? Except, of course, the Audioquest DBS line. Any examples? Just my opinion, too. Nothing personal from me....ever. Even the grand poobah, has to show neutrality to his underlings

 

[plainsong]

Well listening to a rehearsal of an orchestral peice and a performance - I heard a difference. But obviously accourding to ole Edipis there's no difference. It's just my brain playing tricks.

All I can say is, stick to cardboard. It's cheaper than chocolate ice cream, and you can tell yourself it tastes like whatever you like.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong All I can say is, stick to cardboard. It's cheaper than chocolate ice cream, and you can tell yourself it tastes like whatever you like.

What if you found out the $20/gallon "King's Ransom brand" chocolate ice cream you've been eating was identical to the $0.79/gallon "Buy-Rite Grocery" stuff -- both made by the same company but sold by different distributors? Seems to me this is a more apt analogy, if you accept the possibility that cable differences may be placebo/psychosomatic or whatever.

So would you continue buying the "King's Ransom" brand in the handsomely painted box, with a darker brown dye to make the ice cream look richer and more chocolatey? Maybe it even tasted better to you because of the price, brand name, packaging and reputation of the company... but if you found out it was the exact same formula would you continue buying the pricier brand?

P.S. I'm amazed the ops have let this thread go on so long, but maybe because everyone's being so good and civil (unusual in a "cable differences" thread)... I like how mellow Head-Fi is these days, makes it really pleasant to hang around here.

 

[some1x]

If you can prove that the Silver Dragon is made with the same formula as Sennheiser HD650 stock cable, I'll admit that the differences I heard between them to be simply placebo effect