[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastside504 I just like for all the naysayers to go and at least try before forming an opinion.

They will not do this -- and nothing you can say will convince them to do it. They would rather argue.

 

[Akuan]

Wrong, I did not said I did not "hear" difference between cables.
I'm convinced that the difference is due to Placebo effect.
Why don't you put you trusty ears to the real test?
I really believed in trusting my ears and always chearleading all those brave enough to test their hearing ability in a DBT test.
Only after seeing countless of times that they failed rather miserably was one I really realized the significance of the Placebo effect.
You will noticed that those sonic differences that are most likely due to Placebo effect changes with time and thus you'll see endless need for upgrade.
I have yet to encounter a deluded person who does not think that he/she is deluded.
We are different from animals, we learned how not to always trust our senses.



Quote:

Originally Posted by eastside504 First post that claim not to hear a different that has weight becuase he has tired different cables. Remember that everyone's hearing is different and so some will hear a difference while others wont. Some can hear the difference between the 580 and 600, others cant. Some can hear a difference between opamps (627 and 637) while others cant. Some can hear difference with burnin others cant. Does that mean that the difference dont exist? No, its just that difference people will hear differently. I just like for all the naysayers to go and at least try before forming an opinion. Trust your ears, but remember just becuase you dont hear it doesnt mean others cant hear it also. They are not crazy or idiots becuase they hear something that you cant.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oski I wonder why the “objectivists” always insist on elaborate double-blind tests when they can much more easily get a pair of cables and listen for themselves?

Zu $200
Radio Shack $8

I generally don't speand $192 more on something unless I'm pretty darn
sure I am going to get $192 more use out of it.

By the way, last time I bought speakers, I chose them blindly with just a listening test. I plunked myself down in the speaker listening room and pushed each one of the buttons with the letters on them on the switcher and wrote down which letters I liked. Only when I had narrowed it down to three candidates did I look at the brand names and prices.

See ya
Steve

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Zu $200 Radio Shack $8 I generally don't speand $192 more on something unless I'm pretty darn sure I am going to get $192 more use out of it.

Buy the Zu on 60-day return. If you don't hear a difference worth $192, return them. As much as you dislike their suggestion that they might not make a difference in a bad system, they DON'T put any limitations on the return policy relating to the quality of your system. So why not try them, with the risk only being the cost of return shipping?

 

[Oski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot Zu $200 Radio Shack $8 I generally don't speand $192 more on something unless I'm pretty darn sure I am going to get $192 more use out of it. By the way, last time I bought speakers, I chose them blindly with just a listening test. I plunked myself down in the speaker listening room and pushed each one of the buttons with the letters on them on the switcher and wrote down which letters I liked. Only when I had narrowed it down to three candidates did I look at the brand names and prices. See ya Steve

Well, then I'm not quite sure how you can be so emphatic about your position if you haven't even tried it yourself.

I buy most of my equipment in the secondary market because I'm interested in trying out new things. If I don't like it, I'll sell it. So I may be out nominally for shipping, paypal fees, and maybe some depreciation. The cost is merely a part of the enjoyment of the hobby.

There are also Head-Fi meets where people get a chance to test out various equipment. Or heck, borrow from someone.

As for your speaker selection, it is far from a precise methodology due to (1) different positioning of the speakers, (2) synergy between the components, (3) effectiveness of the switching mechanism, (4) cables used (rarely do they use uniform cables between all equipment at stores). These issues highlight common problems with an ABX test, but I applaud the attempt nontheless.

 

[backdrifter]

edit

 

[Akuan]

I don't know anyone in the objectivist camp that have said that the cheapest cable will sound the same. However, a decent cable with good enough electrical properties does not need to cost that much to perform as good as other much more expensive ones. My estimate of $300 was based mainly on interconnects that I had costing $20 should equal to those I've spent $100 (or more) so it roughly 5 times more.
That article was the latest I have read (all deja vu again for me) and it was not meant to imply that power cables and interconnects and speaker wires have the same level contribution. I've read test like this for power amp, interconnects and speaker cables with similar result.
I have used the same arguments that a lot of the subjectivists here are using.
I've been there and it is really all deja vu to me. I will actually will be ashamed to quote some of my arguments (as subjectivist) used in the past.
I used to believe (as an subjectivist) that the objectivist believed every wires sounded the same. This is not true. What they (we) are saying is that any real audible difference that exists can be predicted with established scientific knowledge. DBT tests are commonly used to ensure that what is being heard is real audible difference.
This is my personal opinion (everyone has one) but it is based on established scientific knowledge. I'm willing to bet that Sennheiser uses DBT tests in their development of headphone drivers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by backdrifter Hey, Akuan, good link, good article. Thanks. A few comments. First, I don't know of anyone who prefers high end cables who calls himself "golden ears". I think that's a sarcastic term from the objecitivists. I for one only say that I can hear better performance. Next, you are saying that you could have spent $300 to achieve the same result. Why $300? Why not $200 or less? Is it that you don't think you could achieve the same result on the absolute cheapest cables that have the same or similar electrical properties? I think that at the crux of the objectivist argument is the notion that the cheapest cable sounds the same as the most expensive or most highly regarded. Anything short of that compromises the argument, in my view. Next, that test involved power cords, which are more controversial than interconnects, speaker cables, or headphone cables. To apply that test to cables of all types is another false analogy.

 

[immtbiker]

Don't get us started in powercords

That's another 5 pages.

 

[morphine]

lol Powercords... there's something I don't believe in

But then again I've never tried a nice one.

m

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akuan What they (we) are saying is that any real audible difference that exists can be predicted with established scientific knowledge. DBT tests are commonly used to ensure that what is being heard is real audible difference.

I still haven't heard of a DBT that can account for the ways in which most of us are able to discern differences between cables, etc. I freely admit that if I go to participate in a DBT with a system I am not familiar with, listening to music I am not familiar with, with the product at issue being switched back and forth every few seconds or minutes, I won't be able to discern squat-zool. To some, that would mean that there are no differences. To me and many others whose conclusions regarding the audible effect of cables are based on how we listen in the "real world" that aren't mirrored in a DBT, it would mean nothing.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by backdrifter Next, you are saying that you could have spent $300 to achieve the same result. Why $300? Why not $200 or less?

The better quality cables at Radio Shack have stronger connectors and are less likely to short out with normal handling. Although they sound exactly the same as the two buck cables, there are reasons to spend a little bit more... but sound isn't one of them.

A friend of mine designs and rents high end PA systems. He was doing an outdoor gig with his big system (amphitheater sized) and he realized that his speaker cables (big around as your thumb!) didn't make it into the truck. It was too late to run back to his shop, so he made a quick trip to a nearby hardware store and bought some quarter inch jacks and a couple of big spools of lamp cord. He quickly wired it up and ran the zip cord from the speakers to his mixing board setup. He said there was absolutely no difference in sound or performance. The only reason he uses heavy duty cables is because they get run over by trucks, trampled on and abused. A zip cord would break or short out too quickly.

See ya
Steve

 

[Akuan]

In most DBT test there is usually a training session.
You listen to different sources and verify "audible" difference exists.
The test is usually not carried out if you cannot hear difference sighted.
The interest portion of DBT tests is that most listeners hear difference when they know what is being played but somehow this "difference" disappers when they can't see them (in other words, when they are using only their ears).

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS I still haven't heard of a DBT that can account for the ways in which most of us are able to discern differences between cables, etc. I freely admit that if I go to participate in a DBT with a system I am not familiar with, listening to music I am not familiar with, with the product at issue being switched back and forth every few seconds or minutes, I won't be able to discern squat-zool.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS So why not try them, with the risk only being the cost of return shipping?

I don't do business with people who don't respect their customers. Are there any other companies that make high quality cables for the HD-590 and offer a money back guarantee?

I did purchase a Super Mini Moy with the intention of returning it if it made no difference with my iPod. Even though the headphone out wasn't improved by amping, the sound from the Pocket Dock was noticeably better than the headphone out, so I kept it. The fella at Shellbrook was the model of a good businessman. Too bad the Zu folks don't follow his lead.

See ya
Steve

 

[backdrifter]

edit

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akuan In most DBT test there is usually a training session. You listen to different sources and verify "audible" difference exists. The test is usually not carried out if you cannot hear difference sighted. The interest portion of DBT tests is that most listeners hear difference when they know what is being played but somehow this "difference" disappers when they can't see them (in other words, when they are using only their ears).

This doesn't really prove anything. It just means that when tests are not conducted properly, people who couldn't tell the difference on a short-term basis (which I think is to be expected) may fool themselves into thinking they can (accepting for the moment your generalized summary or what has actually occurred in connection with such tests). But it doesn't prove that if a test was properly conducted, a difference could not be established, or that people don't hear differences under the proper conditions.