Bowers & Wilkins PX7 noise-cancelling over ear headphones
Jul 21, 2022 at 3:44 PM Post #1,876 of 2,191
I have to agree with this. In the 2,5 years of owning the PX7 I have only seen one software update shortly after their release. It's disappointing to see this from a company like B&W.
Nah... It's a headphone, not a smartphone or console etc... Security updates every month? If it already sounds great, ANC and multipoint works stable and so on, what shall the updates deliver? In-App version of PacMan and using headphone as a controller? Newer BT, aptX versions? Maybe the hardware is the bottleneck and not fully compatible. Who knows, who knows..
 
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Jul 21, 2022 at 4:23 PM Post #1,878 of 2,191
I 100% believe you but what makes you say this? Is it documented somewhere? Hard to justify paying $500+ for bluetooth cans without LE audio when it easily could add support. The industry has known about it since 2020.
See comments above about a lack of updates of the last generation of headphones.
Nah... It's a headphone, not a smartphone or console etc... Security updates every month? If it already sounds great, ANC and multipoint works stable and so on, what shall the updates deliver? In-App version of PacMan and using headphone as a controller? Newer BT, aptX versions? Maybe the hardware is the bottleneck and not fully compatible. Who knows, who knows..
Updates could deliver, for example, sound eq and improved mic performance (Shure Aonic 50) - the latter is certainly something the PX7 could have benefited from. Or they could deliver improved ANC, a better eq performance, an optimal improved sound signature (Sennheiser M3).

Active, noise cancelling headphones are a very different beast from passive headphones.

One may think the PX7s do not need any additional features (I respectfully disagree), but the PI7s have noted issues, and none of them have been addressed. To make matters worse, B&W invite this criticism as their headphone apps says new features will be added frequently. This is, as said in this thread, simply not true.

Anyway, the point was that relying on B&W to add features via firmware is unlikely, given their past performance in this area.
 
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Jul 21, 2022 at 7:27 PM Post #1,879 of 2,191
There is no product currently on the market supporting LE audio. None. So there's that.
Well, like I mentioned, the codec has been known about for at least 2 years. If you are releasing a headphone in the middle of 2022 without the ability to upgrade (which would be a simple firmware update) you must think your consumers are idiots.
I would never buy a product from a company that thinks I am an idiot.
 
Jul 22, 2022 at 6:12 AM Post #1,880 of 2,191
See comments above about a lack of updates of the last generation of headphones.

Updates could deliver, for example, sound eq and improved mic performance (Shure Aonic 50) - the latter is certainly something the PX7 could have benefited from. Or they could deliver improved ANC, a better eq performance, an optimal improved sound signature (Sennheiser M3).

Active, noise cancelling headphones are a very different beast from passive headphones.

One may think the PX7s do not need any additional features (I respectfully disagree), but the PI7s have noted issues, and none of them have been addressed. To make matters worse, B&W invite this criticism as their headphone apps says new features will be added frequently. This is, as said in this thread, simply not true.

Anyway, the point was that relying on B&W to add features via firmware is unlikely, given their past performance in this area.

Totally agree.
 
Jul 22, 2022 at 7:00 AM Post #1,881 of 2,191
Nah... It's a headphone, not a smartphone or console etc... Security updates every month? If it already sounds great, ANC and multipoint works stable and so on, what shall the updates deliver? In-App version of PacMan and using headphone as a controller? Newer BT, aptX versions? Maybe the hardware is the bottleneck and not fully compatible. Who knows, who knows..
I agree with you that this isn't a smartphone or console, and monthly updates would be overkill for sure. You mention that multipoint works stable for you, but for me it's hit or miss. In most cases it won't automatically connect to the second device and requires manually connecting. Maybe this is because I have a first generation version, and B&W solved this in later models who knows. A software update might have been able to solve this issue for me.

Newer BT / aptX version would most likely not be possible as this is hardware restricted. I understand that would require the purchase of new headphones.
 
Jul 22, 2022 at 10:12 AM Post #1,882 of 2,191
Well, like I mentioned, the codec has been known about for at least 2 years. If you are releasing a headphone in the middle of 2022 without the ability to upgrade (which would be a simple firmware update) you must think your consumers are idiots.
I would never buy a product from a company that thinks I am an idiot.
LE Audio is a completely new audio software protocol, not just a codec. LC3 exists as the mandatory base codec within it, but it can also be seemingly implemented in Bluetooth Classic through A2DP.

I say “seemingly” because full specification was only just released last week, and people are still figuring out exactly what is and is not possible. Turns out, while better than SBC, it’s not “lossless” as many had hoped, and may not even beat aptX or AAC in terms of audio quality.

The full testing can really only be done now, even though it’s been “known about” since 2016. It was supposed to be ready in 2017, then in late 2020 (according to the Bluetooth SIG as of January 2020… their time estimate was not even close) so any manufacturer who “waited” for it to be done would be basically sitting on their hands releasing nothing for years, given that the full spec still didn’t exist beyond some pretty infographics and promises.

Ask an engineer who works with Bluetooth if it’ll be a “simple firmware update” and they’ll probably laugh out loud; the whole stack remains a dumpster fire and everyone’s been burned enough times by the Bluetooth SIG to take almost anything they say with a grain of salt. There’s a reason “next year it will work great” has been the motto of Bluetooth for the last seven years; compatibility and implementation of these features remains a mess.

B&W has been fairly transparent in not listing any BS on their spec sheet or promising anything that they’re not sure they can actually achieve. It’s very clear to customers what they’re getting and what they aren’t, and nobody is lying or making promises that they may or may not be able to keep. To me, the companies that treat their customers like idiots are:

  • The ones who promised better range, quality, etc. solely thanks to the magic of Bluetooth versions 5.0, 5.1, 5.2, etc. They knew full well these improvements only applied to Bluetooth Low Energy, where audio transmission wasn’t occurring, and Bluetooth Classic has remained the same since 4.2 and even earlier. They basically lied to drive upgrade cycles, and the misinformed YouTubers seeking affiliate link clicks didn’t exactly help. The SIG, of course, had no interest in clearing up these misconceptions.
  • The (few so far) who are promising LE Audio support via updates in current products, some of whom don’t even explain what that even means beyond vague statements like “next-generation features” and “higher audio quality”. Don’t be shocked to see much of this fail to come to fruition, in the same way that TV and AVR manufacturers who promised HDMI 2.1 software updates burned their customers when it turned out everything got delayed, it wasn’t possible to implement certain features in the way they thought it would be, and plugging in a PS5 or Xbox Series X basically broke everything — something they only found out at release because before then there were literally no source devices to use to actually test this stuff. I wouldn’t be surprised if the first few LC3/LE headphones have a multitude of compatibility issues and glitches with certain smartphones next year as the kinks get worked out.

It indeed may not be the best time to buy a wireless headphone if you’re the type of person who cares about this stuff, but there have been people waiting and not buying anything for years based on these future Bluetooth promises. Not to mention, the second LC3 is actually out in the wild, we’ll have to wait for the mythical LC3+ codec to be ready next! And of course, the actual drivers, DSP implementation, and internal amplification of a wireless headphones seem to make a much bigger difference than most of this…
 
Jul 22, 2022 at 1:13 PM Post #1,883 of 2,191
LE Audio is a completely new audio software protocol, not just a codec. LC3 exists as the mandatory base codec within it, but it can also be seemingly implemented in Bluetooth Classic through A2DP.

I say “seemingly” because full specification was only just released last week, and people are still figuring out exactly what is and is not possible. Turns out, while better than SBC, it’s not “lossless” as many had hoped, and may not even beat aptX or AAC in terms of audio quality.

The full testing can really only be done now, even though it’s been “known about” since 2016. It was supposed to be ready in 2017, then in late 2020 (according to the Bluetooth SIG as of January 2020… their time estimate was not even close) so any manufacturer who “waited” for it to be done would be basically sitting on their hands releasing nothing for years, given that the full spec still didn’t exist beyond some pretty infographics and promises.

Having read what LE Audio is supposed to deliver, it has nothing to do with SQ - all I could find is that it's "better than SBC". No comparison with LDAC, AptX (HD), etc, etc

E.g. read this article - I was laughing loud. Hopefully there's much more to it

https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/what-is-bluetooth-le-audio/

or these

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...explaining-the-latest-wireless-tech-standard/
https://www.howtogeek.com/558579/what-is-bluetooth-le-audio-and-why-will-you-want-it/

Of course it's everyone's own decision what products they buy or don't buy, but for a surmised lack of future firmware update to a codec that doesn't seem to offer much and which is not supported by any device...
 
Jul 22, 2022 at 1:50 PM Post #1,884 of 2,191
LE Audio is a completely new audio software protocol, not just a codec. LC3 exists as the mandatory base codec within it, but it can also be seemingly implemented in Bluetooth Classic through A2DP.

I say “seemingly” because full specification was only just released last week, and people are still figuring out exactly what is and is not possible. Turns out, while better than SBC, it’s not “lossless” as many had hoped, and may not even beat aptX or AAC in terms of audio quality.

The full testing can really only be done now, even though it’s been “known about” since 2016. It was supposed to be ready in 2017, then in late 2020 (according to the Bluetooth SIG as of January 2020… their time estimate was not even close) so any manufacturer who “waited” for it to be done would be basically sitting on their hands releasing nothing for years, given that the full spec still didn’t exist beyond some pretty infographics and promises.

Ask an engineer who works with Bluetooth if it’ll be a “simple firmware update” and they’ll probably laugh out loud; the whole stack remains a dumpster fire and everyone’s been burned enough times by the Bluetooth SIG to take almost anything they say with a grain of salt. There’s a reason “next year it will work great” has been the motto of Bluetooth for the last seven years; compatibility and implementation of these features remains a mess.

B&W has been fairly transparent in not listing any BS on their spec sheet or promising anything that they’re not sure they can actually achieve. It’s very clear to customers what they’re getting and what they aren’t, and nobody is lying or making promises that they may or may not be able to keep. To me, the companies that treat their customers like idiots are:

  • The ones who promised better range, quality, etc. solely thanks to the magic of Bluetooth versions 5.0, 5.1, 5.2, etc. They knew full well these improvements only applied to Bluetooth Low Energy, where audio transmission wasn’t occurring, and Bluetooth Classic has remained the same since 4.2 and even earlier. They basically lied to drive upgrade cycles, and the misinformed YouTubers seeking affiliate link clicks didn’t exactly help. The SIG, of course, had no interest in clearing up these misconceptions.
  • The (few so far) who are promising LE Audio support via updates in current products, some of whom don’t even explain what that even means beyond vague statements like “next-generation features” and “higher audio quality”. Don’t be shocked to see much of this fail to come to fruition, in the same way that TV and AVR manufacturers who promised HDMI 2.1 software updates burned their customers when it turned out everything got delayed, it wasn’t possible to implement certain features in the way they thought it would be, and plugging in a PS5 or Xbox Series X basically broke everything — something they only found out at release because before then there were literally no source devices to use to actually test this stuff. I wouldn’t be surprised if the first few LC3/LE headphones have a multitude of compatibility issues and glitches with certain smartphones next year as the kinks get worked out.

It indeed may not be the best time to buy a wireless headphone if you’re the type of person who cares about this stuff, but there have been people waiting and not buying anything for years based on these future Bluetooth promises. Not to mention, the second LC3 is actually out in the wild, we’ll have to wait for the mythical LC3+ codec to be ready next! And of course, the actual drivers, DSP implementation, and internal amplification of a wireless headphones seem to make a much bigger difference than most of this…

Inspired and inspiring post. A good short read.

Guess I shouldn’t wait then...
 
Jul 22, 2022 at 3:14 PM Post #1,886 of 2,191
How so? It's a headphone. It works as designed. No need to meddle.
Shure added on board EQ to the Aonic 50 in an update which is a nice feature to have. Since the headphones have DSP etc. they can also improve sound quality, ANC and more in updates. Having as few updates as B&W have had indicates that the company moves on to the next headphone and skip trying to improve what they have already sold to customers.
 
Jul 23, 2022 at 11:31 AM Post #1,888 of 2,191
Or they think they got it right with fw v. 1.1

If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it. :)
It would have been nice, though, if they'd stuck to their word and added some improvements, and either improved mic performance on calls or added an ambient mode when making calls.

Other competitors manage to do so, but B&W just either don't care or don't have the software engineers to dedicate to do any improvements. Either way, that's a disappointment.
 
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Jul 27, 2022 at 12:00 AM Post #1,889 of 2,191
I purchased the Bower and Wilkins px7 about two years ago. After about 3 months of ownership the left year headphone became staticky. I read this was a well known problem. I called bower and Wilkins customer service. As it was a well known fault with the headphone reported on this and other forums I requested a new pair of headphones and that they send a pre paid postage slip to me so I could send my headphones back. The guy at customer service reported that they had had no previous issues with static in the left ear. I had to pay to have my headphones sent back. (With insurance and tracking it was not cheap). About a month later I got a refurbished headphone from them. About a year later the headphones once again developed static. ….. wait for it…..wait for it….in the left ear.

I am mentioning this now as they have come out with new headphones - px7 and soon the px8. In my opinion: BUYER BEWARE. While hopefully they fixed this well known issue they still will in my opinion likely provide poor customer service for any new problems with their headphones.
 
Aug 5, 2022 at 7:03 PM Post #1,890 of 2,191
Jup...the main question is PX7 S2 vs PX8... How much superior PX8 will be and whether the higher price would be really justified.
if its like the pi5-pi7 it could be dramatic.

For B&W to launch another tier i think it will be a big difference personally. The P9 was considerably better than the P7.
 

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