[MikePio]

Hello everyone,

Today my friend and I decided to use the MKIII as a pre-amp to my technics system (which is old) we where just fooling around not expecting much at all, maybe worse quality if anything, The speakers consisted of two towers with three drives each.

We proceded to turn on a various music types, classical,rock, opera and we where blown away by the clarity and solid bass that just filled the room with crisp overwhelming sound, the details where also quite impressive.

I know comparing these to my K701's is not a good idea, i really had no choice, i once heard a 6000 dollar speaker set matches a good pair of audiophile headphones, but from todays experiment, I'm not so sure...

These speakers date back to 1995 or something and they are not anything crazy and the sound was just astounding.

Can someone plz explain if anybody has had the same experiences regarding speakers, and if headphones are in fact superior in sound reproduction. (though the headphones due sound amazing, headphones felt more in your head, as with the speakers you where in the music, overwhelmed!)

What speakers would you guys suggest for starters, since it got my attention lol, and what are the primary differences between speakers and headphones!
Thanks,

-Mike.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePio /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hello everyone, Today my friend and I decided to use the MKIII as a pre-amp to my technics system (which is old) we where just fooling around not expecting much at all, maybe worse quality if anything, The speakers consisted of two towers with three drives each. We proceded to turn on a various music types, classical,rock, opera and we where blown away by the clarity and solid bass that just filled the room with crisp overwhelming sound, the details where also quite impressive. I know comparing these to my K701's is not a good idea, i really had no choice, i once heard a 6000 dollar speaker set matches a good pair of audiophile headphones, but from todays experiment, I'm not so sure... These speakers date back to 1995 or something and they are not anything crazy and the sound was just astounding. Can someone plz explain if anybody has had the same experiences regarding speakers, and if headphones are in fact superior in sound reproduction. (though the headphones due sound amazing, headphones felt more in your head, as with the speakers you where in the music, overwhelmed!) What speakers would you guys suggest for starters, since it got my attention lol, and what are the primary differences between speakers and headphones! Thanks, -Mike.

Headphones have got a couple of things in their favor that are really hard to replicate in conventional speaker systems -- 1) Environment 2) Coherency.

The environment is perfectly controlled. If you started with your hypothetical $6,000 speakers, then you built the perfect room around them, treated it just right with reflective and damping surfaces and sat in exactly the right spot, you would then have a speaker system that would, perhaps, be as good as your 701s. Better, actually. Your 701s will never image like speakers. But range, quality, detail....$12,000 speakers, $50,000 speakers will not catch up with a pair of reference phones until the room does. I don't care how good the equipment is, anyone who thinks they're hearing great audio in a hard room with no treatments is hearing their purchase justifications, not their audio system.

Almost all (and I haven't heard the exceptions) headphones are single-driver systems. No crossovers. No degrading electronics, no conflicting drivers trying to cover bits of the same range in a completely different way (as a 6" driver and a 3/4" driver, by design, must). The net result is a purity and transparency in the vital midrange, where almost all of the music lies, that is really hard to replicate in speaker systems. It requires either a whole lot of money or a whole lot of compromise (single driver speaker systems that miss the power of deep bass and the air of high trebles, but reproduce ~60 - 15k, at times, beautifully, or so I hear.

Being a can fan, I've been interested in single driver systems for a few years. I've nearly pulled the trigger on a set a couple of times and I keep getting cold feet over the oft-repeated opinion that they are really good at simple music like acoustic, jazz, etc. but don't hold up for big symphonic stuff or loud, aggressive music. I should do it. I could always pop on the Senns for King Crimson.

Tim

 

[Penchum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePio /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hello everyone, Today my friend and I decided to use the MKIII as a pre-amp to my technics system (which is old) we where just fooling around not expecting much at all, maybe worse quality if anything, The speakers consisted of two towers with three drives each. We proceded to turn on a various music types, classical,rock, opera and we where blown away by the clarity and solid bass that just filled the room with crisp overwhelming sound, the details where also quite impressive. I know comparing these to my K701's is not a good idea, i really had no choice, i once heard a 6000 dollar speaker set matches a good pair of audiophile headphones, but from todays experiment, I'm not so sure... These speakers date back to 1995 or something and they are not anything crazy and the sound was just astounding. Can someone plz explain if anybody has had the same experiences regarding speakers, and if headphones are in fact superior in sound reproduction. (though the headphones due sound amazing, headphones felt more in your head, as with the speakers you where in the music, overwhelmed!) What speakers would you guys suggest for starters, since it got my attention lol, and what are the primary differences between speakers and headphones! Thanks, -Mike.

Hi Mike,

I've had similar experiences with both of my vintage systems and my digital mini-system. I've always been a "speaker system" guy, who loved headphones for those quiet times in between listening sessions. Even though I have spent more time with headphones in the last few years, I still prefer at times to immerse myself in the sound of a great speaker system.

The MKIII uses both the power tubes and driver tubes for it's pre-outs, which is a big improvement over previous models that used only the driver tubes. Injecting the tube flavoring into your source signal can result is some seriously excellent sound (like you discovered) and is one of my favorite things to experiment with.

Last week, I took my MKIII's output and feed it into my mini-system, just to see what the obvious changes were. There was an immediate increase in sound quality. The bass was more refined, mids had that little extra tube niceness, and the highs were more detailed and less digital sounding. The sound stage was the biggest improvement of all. It was impressive and this has made me re-think my mini-system to include my MKIII on a permanent basis.

On a side note, if the Technics system sounds great with the MKIII, that is all the better. Talk about a zero cost sound improvement!!

If you can incorporate the MKIII into the Technics system and still use it with other sources, you win!

Here is an example of how I did that:

I have a spare Pioneer Integrated Amp, so I'm using it's pre-amp section as part of my mini-system. I use my computer's Creative X-Fi as a digital transport, optical out to a Zero/DAC amp. The Zero's output goes into the pre-amp on AUX1. My MKIII's input is hooked up to the REC OUT on Tape1 of the pre-amp and the MKIII's output is hooked up to PLAY BACK on Tape1 of the pre-amp. The pre-amp's output goes to my Super-T amp and on to my speakers. With it hooked up this way, I can hook up additional sources to the pre-amp, and listen to them "filtered" by the MKIII, or listen to them with headphones via the MKIII. This way, I get the best of both worlds.

You should be able to do the same with your Technics system, whether it is a receiver or separate components.

Your speakers may seem old, but if the drivers and crossovers are not blown and everything in good physical shape, I'd keep them and enjoy them!

Which type of system (speaker or headphone) is superior for listening, is a personal preference thing. I like both, which allows me to pick and choose which one I'm in the mood for.

I hope this helps some!

 

[MikePio]

Thank you tfarney and penchum for the detailed answers,

As of now I will leave my MKIII with the technics system setup and switch from headphones and speakers whenever the mood fits! lol, im just really excited on the new sound quality from the speakers and K701's now,

Maybe in the future when i have enough money ill build a room that is specifically designed for sound reproduction with speakers, and have another room with all my headphone collections!

Maybe im getting ahead of myself lol, ill go broke....

Anywayz once again thanks for the responses, i am glad i found a forum where ppl can share the experiences and clarify different questions.

-Mike.

 

[jrosenth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif Headphones have got a couple of things in their favor that are really hard to replicate in conventional speaker systems -- 1) Environment 2) Coherency. The environment is perfectly controlled. If you started with your hypothetical $6,000 speakers, then you built the perfect room around them, treated it just right with reflective and damping surfaces and sat in exactly the right spot, you would then have a speaker system that would, perhaps, be as good as your 701s. Better, actually. Your 701s will never image like speakers. But range, quality, detail....$12,000 speakers, $50,000 speakers will not catch up with a pair of reference phones until the room does. I don't care how good the equipment is, anyone who thinks they're hearing great audio in a hard room with no treatments is hearing their purchase justifications, not their audio system. Almost all (and I haven't heard the exceptions) headphones are single-driver systems. No crossovers. No degrading electronics, no conflicting drivers trying to cover bits of the same range in a completely different way (as a 6" driver and a 3/4" driver, by design, must). The net result is a purity and transparency in the vital midrange, where almost all of the music lies, that is really hard to replicate in speaker systems. It requires either a whole lot of money or a whole lot of compromise (single driver speaker systems that miss the power of deep bass and the air of high trebles, but reproduce ~60 - 15k, at times, beautifully, or so I hear. Being a can fan, I've been interested in single driver systems for a few years. I've nearly pulled the trigger on a set a couple of times and I keep getting cold feet over the oft-repeated opinion that they are really good at simple music like acoustic, jazz, etc. but don't hold up for big symphonic stuff or loud, aggressive music. I should do it. I could always pop on the Senns for King Crimson. Tim

For this very reason, I use some full range speakers without any crossover components in the signal, and account for the curve and the rooms curve with a behringer digital EQ - taking care of all the processing in the digital domain.

It's surprising how far this will take you towards the coherency you find with a good pair of headphones. Ironically, you can put together this sort of system for relatively cheap.

Personally, it's a little surprising that this sort of route gets so little play here considering that headphones exhibit these particular virtues. But to each their own

 

[Drag0n]

I think my Ultrasone Icans have multiple drivers iirc.
They sound great once your brain burns in.

 

[twc5964]

After reading this thread I decided to give the MKIII another shot as a preamp.Mine is a little finicky but now it's working.It sounds pretty darn good.This is a sound i'm not use to at all.I've always had ss preamps with tone controls to use.I have a modified 1984 Yamaha preamp done by me that sounds beautiful.The MKIII does not have the base slam or richness of the Yammy,however,it provides a nice smooth sound pleasing to my ears. A nice little surprise indeed.It does Shannon Hoons vocals of Blind Melon justice.I'm even happier now with the Little Dot !

 

[MikePio]

Well after listening some more, i am still baffled by the sound of the speakers, and ya twc5964 try the MKIII as your preamp and see if you like, for me the difference was amazing, but then again im not such an expert when it comes to speakers, and im new to this audiophile realm...
Maybe some more people could post their experiences with using there amp as a pre-amp to there speaker system, i am wondering if they feel the same way...
Oh and the tubes seem to get way hotter, is this normal?

-Mike.

 

[twc5964]

I admit I'm really enjoying it more now.It's had plenty of time to warm up and I've used it with many different genres of music.I'm gonna leave it hooked up to my small system for awhile.I'm starting to like this more and more

I use a nearby fan to keep a gentle breeze on my system.You might want to try something similar..it kept the MKIII running much cooler.I do this also when i use it with my computer for headphone use.Your right,it sounds very good as a preamp adding a nice touch to the music.I'm glad you noticed a big improvement.That's always a nice unexpected surprise ya know !

 

[Penchum]

Don't forget that tube rolling will give you different results on your main system, than it did with just headphones.

 

[twc5964]

Any suggestions Penchum for some tubes to use that dont require the jumper as I dont have those.

Now,I wonder how much better a more expensive tubed preamp would sound.The MKIII is already a very competent performer.

 

[Hi-Finthen]

Big advocate of tube preamping here, both with my home speakers > 35w digital monoblocks AND more importantly for our purpose here between my CDP and S.S. H'phone amp. Wonderful sonic improvements to my musics presentation. Dependent upon my choice of NOS tubes(much more palpable improvements over current stock tubes), RCAs are my personal favorites in my pre lately!

Enjoy~

 

[MikePio]

I was about to purchase the Mullards M8161 tubes and the NOS RCA 6AK5, is this a good combination? and will it significantly improve the sound quality from stock MKIII tubes, with speakers and headphones? Tube rolling is relatively not so expensive and one of the benefits of have a tube amp in my opinion. ( i can only imagine the excitement if the sound improves from the stock ones!)

 

[Hi-Finthen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePio /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was about to purchase the Mullards M8161 tubes and the NOS RCA 6AK5, is this a good combination? and will it significantly improve the sound quality from stock MKIII tubes, with speakers and headphones? Tube rolling is relatively not so expensive and one of the benefits of have a tube amp in my opinion. ( i can only imagine the excitement if the sound improves from the stock ones!)

Although it will be specific implimentation dependent, I'm guessing as with my Foreplay your pre hardware is likewise , clear,clean and neutral, so then researching others opinions of specific tubes charesteristics should follow in your application.

You are doing the right exercise asking here, but beyond that, then it comes down to trust in the seller and then the particular tube and the condition it is in, really.

Google it and see what you might gather. But in general I certainly would say go for the NOS ~

My Mullards are a nice improvement in the expansiveness of the soundstage, bringing the midrange forward with more body to each note / cords whereas the RCAs have that also but with more bass prominance and more focus / more detailed yet!

Tough for me to better articulate, yet so very obvious and beautific to experience. I particularly like using a tube pre and an S.S. amp because of the stenths of the latter are the dominante charecteristics to the presentation, especially in tight and articulate bass frequencys...

Best of luck, and perservere

 

[Penchum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePio /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was about to purchase the Mullards M8161 tubes and the NOS RCA 6AK5, is this a good combination? and will it significantly improve the sound quality from stock MKIII tubes, with speakers and headphones? Tube rolling is relatively not so expensive and one of the benefits of have a tube amp in my opinion. ( i can only imagine the excitement if the sound improves from the stock ones!)

Both of those are driver tubes, so you could only use one set at a time. The Mullards are going to sound more rich and full, the RCA's may be more bright than that.

Probably the best place to research the EF95's and EF92's, will be in the MKIII tube rolling thread. There are lots of posts about a bunch of tubes used in the MKIII.