[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

 
what I'd like to see from you is to grab a new headphone and use it for about 500 hours without seeing the graph.

 
Not once have I trusted a graph over my listening impressions.  Not once.  I like and dislike the exact same headphones now as I did before I ever saw these graphs.  If you knew more about my history you would probably understand though I'm not holding my breath.  I'm not going to try to prove anything to you, I could care less. 

 

[kiteki]

 
Exactly right.  These CSD's match with what I hear, very consistently.  If they didn't then I wouldn't trust them.

 
That's just expectation bias like cables though, you hear what you want to hear.  No one thinks the DT990 and T70 sound alike except for you.

 

[rhythmdevils]

I have no expectation bias.  I hear it like I hear it.  There's not a single example of this in all my time here.  I use monoprice cables.  Try again. 

 

[kiteki]

I didn't mean you use expensive cables, just that if you look at the data first and listen later you'll have some expectation bias.
 
FR and CSD is only the colour accuracy on your computer screen.
 
 
Edit:  I like the signature of my monitor, beautiful shades of blue and deep red lines, overtones of sugar plum.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Again, not once have my listening impressions changed from seeing measurements.  I have always said that if a headphone sounds good but measures bad, you are not measuring correctly. 
 
Me and you just have very different priorities and hearing.  I'm not going to derail this thread, if you want to discuss, send me a pm. 

 

[kyuuketsuki]

Why are you guys arguing over what another hears? 
 
Everyone hears differently, if the T70 sounds like the DT990 to him then it does. It is as simple as that. It doesn't to me, and it doesn't to you. What we hear should be all that matters, and arguing over it is senseless. Whether he had a bias initially or not, biases disappear as the length of time in use increase. Expectation bias, as far as I can tell, is with initial listening until the wearer's personal biases, yes we all have them, is expelled and a person hears the headphone as the brain should hear it properly. 
 
I do not think the DT series sounds like the T series. They sound differently. I don't like the DT series (with the exception of the DT1350, which I prefer over the T50p), but I like the T90 quite a lot. 
 
EDIT: In other words: trust your ears. Stop complaining over another person's personal opinion. It has no impact on Beyer, you or your enjoyment of the headphones you enjoy.

 

[kiteki]

Why are you guys arguing over what another hears? 
 
Everyone hears differently, if the T70 sounds like the DT990 to him then it does.

 
Neither of them have heard the T70p, they're just looking at spectral data with their paper tigers of sine waves.
 
 
There are dozens of factors you can't see in FR / CSD / IR / SWR / THD+N, that's all.
 
I have lots of evidence of that.

 

[kyuuketsuki]

Quote:

 
Neither of them have heard the T70p, they're just looking at spectral data with their paper tigers of sine waves.
 
 
There are dozens of factors you can't see in FR / CSD / IR / SWR / THD+N, that's all.
 
I have lots of evidence of that.

 
Oh... Well... In that case...
 
There is no way to take perfect measurements unless you are EXTREMELY meticulous. Any person who takes measurements can tell you that (well aside from Ohmage and a few other measurements). This is aside from the fact that each person hears differently, which means that from the start the person won't hear the measurements as is anyway. That is unless, by some strange unmutation, the shape of the inner ear is perfect, and the hearing is completely unaffected from the years of use, perhaps you can hear the exact measurements. And that is assuming that the measurements are taken perfectly on a head in an anechotic chamber, ensuring there is no reverb or any artificial frequencies that are generated during the measuring process. This of course requires a completely perfectly anechotic chamber as well, which are rare to begin with. 
 
There is more to measurements than meets the eye. Certain measurements of physical properties can be done, but the aural properties is another story entirely.

 

[Questhate]

Quote:

They're both just looking at the graphs, the T70p is the best headphone I've heard under $500 and clearly in a different class than DT770, DT990 which I found pretty lackluster imho.
 
 
rhythmdevils used to say graph's don't tell you anything but now fell into the school of thought of flat + extended FR / CSD.
 
 
Audio is like PC monitors, you can have perfect colour accuracy and infra-red <-> ultraviolet extension, that doesn't necessarily imply the refresh rate, G2G, resolution, size, black levels, contrast ratio or depth are anything to write home about.

 
I somewhat agree with this. No single measurement (including CSD plots) tells you the entire story. But they can tell you part of the story. And you can take several different measurements (FR, CSD, Square Waves, Bass distortion, THD, etc.) to give some insight of how something sounds. It's much more reliable than reading entirely subjective impressions from random people on Head-Fi who may hear differently and may have different audio priorities. But in the end, it's really up to your ears. 
 
FWIW, I find the CSDs extremely useful, and they have consistently matched what I've heard. But that doesn't mean I only like headphones with good CSD plots. I absolutely love Grados, but I can concede that they are imperfect, and can possibly even be considered "bad" from a neutrality and fidelity standpoint. But, I didn't need CSDs to tell me they are colored, or have peaky treble, or have some troublesome ringing. That doesn't stop me from enjoying them, because their particular brand of colorations do it for me, and outweigh the negatives (given my priorities). 
 
Quote:

 
I could care less about your history, just stick to being the classless arrogant, cantankerous ass that you are........and break out your scissors and dixie cups.....keep teaching those AKG and Beyer engineers how to "DO IT"........you pompous ass

 
LOL... someone give this guy a hug. We're just talking headphones here. 
 
Wow... just wow...

 

[briskly]

As someone who had the T70 for a couple of weeks, and mostly hated it, let me throw in my contribution pour gas on the fire.
 
 

1. I heard the peaks at 5khz and at 10khz, rather than 4/8k. The treble still seemed rolled off to my ear.

 

1. The midrange and treble had a very peculiar character about it. Not just spiky, but unnatural sounding. Very sibilant.

 

1. The T70 does not sound like very much like the DT990 overall. Missing the DT990's pronounced midbass. Mid-to-treble dryness ratio, maybe. The CSDs don't reach into the bass.

 

1. The DT990 just sounded like a load of brightness. Not that I like the DT990.

 
The T70 had subbass, but there seemed to be a high bass suckout. Had rumble, but not enough fullness.
 
Personal EQ curve.
 

 
This was about as far I tried messing around with the EQ before I finally realized I should have sent it back earlier.

 

[Katun]

Quote:

LOL... someone give this guy a hug. We're just talking headphones here. 
 
Wow... just wow...

 
Blame the K550 thread which went out of control, resulting in many deleted posts, and the thread getting locked.

 

[Digital-Pride]

Gentlemen(and ladies) let's step back and take a collective breath.  There are many who like the way Beyerdynamic voices their headphones, and there are those who don't.  It's the same with Sennheiser or any other brand.  The great thing about this hobby is there is almost always something for everyone and every taste.

 

[maverickronin]

Why do people end up taking this stuff personally?  Just because a headphone measures poorly in one area doesn't mean you can't like it and it doesn't mean you have bad ears or something if you do.  I'm not attacking a person when I say something negative about a headphone, even if they happen to own it and love it.  The reason for such criticism is to educate people and hopefully make headphone companies take notice and release better products.
 
Maybe some of you don't find these time domain and driver ringing issues too annoying but wouldn't it be better for everyone if they were fixed?
 
Reading through purrin's thread on CSDs might net you some quite useful information even if you don't care about "accuracy" in measurement.  No matter what you like, understanding some of the science behind it can be useful in finding what you're looking for.  They're a tool like any other.

 

[kiteki]

As far as I'm concerned FR / CSD is only the colour accuracy of a PC monitor / TV so a school of thought criticizing the latest Sony Bravia 1080P 600Hz w/e for having too high blue levels and saying some Panasonic from 2002 is better (in colour accuracy) doesn't seem like an accurate assessment.
 
 
I don't see any emblazoned reasons to turn the Tesla T70p into a reference STAX in CSD response if sacrifces have to me made in other departments of it's sound, so no.
 
 
You need to answer the question on an adjusted (eq + noise) Audeze LCD-3 versus Skullcandy Mix Master Mike if anyone is going to follow your school of thought.

 

[kiteki]

Originally Posted by Questhate /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
It's much more reliable than reading entirely subjective impressions from random people on Head-Fi who may hear differently and may have different audio priorities. But in the end, it's really up to your ears. 

 
The only reliable part is that hardware and software can't lie.  If you read impressions from a dozen humans with the same listening experience and pursuits as yourself then it's pretty accurate I'd imagine.
 
I mean, just because this data is 'reliable', does it actually make any sense to you?  If it does please tell me this secret book on how to decipher audio hieroglyph's handed down to us from Imhotep.
 
  =