[kpeezy]

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think what he says has a bit of merit. While good audio is necessary for gaming, it is not going to always (or often) make the difference between living and dying. I'm sure the ER-4P's are noticeably better at location and sound accuracy, however, there is a lot more to FPS games than sound, obviously. Those who expect to buy ER-4P's and it to make a night and day difference in their scores and general gameplay will likely be mistaken. For serious gamers, it might make the difference in a couple of scenarios, and that's what makes it worth it for them. It's a lot like buying a mouse. A Logitech G5 is clearly superior to a standard optical mouse, but it's not going to take you from being a horrible player to a great player. It's just going to make the things you do well a bit better and more consistent. I know players who are running dual 8800s, 4 gigs of ram, with a custom mousepad and gaming headset, and they get fragged all the time, and get very upset about it. Nothing substitutes for skill. Not the best headphones, not a laser mouse, nada.

Sorry, but that's not true at all. In some games, sound plays just as big a part if not bigger. The only game I really play where sound is this important is CS 1.6. I know I sound like a broken record, but it's true. In a league or scrimmage setting, sound is huge. If you know what the sounds mean, it can often be more important than aim. I'd probably chalk it up as 50% sound, 50% skill in CS 1.6.

 

[Agrajag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cry Havoc /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you just a GRAW based clan, or do you participate in other games as well?

I'm in the GRAW2 Division (I'm actually our lead GRAW2 officer) but we have other divisions as well. Just check ou tthe website. COD4 is the big one right now. We have EVE players, Company of Heroes, TF2, etc.

 

[Agrajag]

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Originally Posted by Trepid!ty /img/forum/go_quote.gif spacemanspliff that sounds very hard to believe, have you done any direct comparisons to DT880s/ER-4P's/GX400s?

There's no way he could have if that's his view. Understand that I will OFTEN tell people that if they're not willing to put out the bucks then they can do well with KOSS. They make some decent drivers for what they are. That does NOT mean that they're exceptional. I happen to be a KOSS fan but let's be real here....

As far as how quality impacts play, again, come on and ask customers how it impacted them. These are guys who have been playing games for many years. Also, look at the Marco Polo information on our website. The higher the accuracy of the audio output device, the more effective the players were at localizing. The data is black and white on this issue. People can keep coming up with short-cut theories but that's all they are. The one guy above says that those who buy them and expect night and day differences will be disappointed. Again, this is one of those comments that is spoken as fact without facts behind it. ASK the current owners. I know several bought them hoping it would be a dramatic impact but DOUBTING it would be and, surprise, it was. I don't need to guess about that. I can just talk to real users.

A mouse is hardly a good analogy. If you CANNOT hear the cues properly you ARE NOT going to be a good player unless you just happen to have insanely effective instincts. It's not like an average mouse is going to put the pointer in the wrong spot or not allow you to point at the spot you want.

I do agree that skill is the key component here. However, that doesn't mean that you have to overcome your own equipment on purpose. Good equipment absolutely helps. Do you see any pro golfers on the tour using rental equipment? Do you see pro skiers using junk? Why not? They have the skill don't they?

I'm 43 years old and I'm still extremely competitive in FPS games where most of our opponents are less than half my age. So either I'm Superman or my equipment is giving me an advantage. As much as I'd LIKE to believe the former, I long ago realized that the latter is much more in play here.

In GRAW2 (which one the award for best audio in a game last year) I can hear you coming from SIXTY yards away. No one in the game believed me until they saw it for themselves and then, later, heard it for themselves. Every day I have people telling me that their $30 equipment let's them hear everything just fine. They'll even suggest I cheat instead of believing that equipment can make that kind of difference. I also have to factor in who is after me. If I think it's another guy with our headset I have to be much more careful as I know the slightest movement will betray my location to them.

All nay-sayers have to do is come on to our vent servers and listen to how often all of these owners say, "I heard you coming" when they shoot a target 45 yards off and are asked how they knew they were there.

This concept that audio isn't that important is my biggest hurdle. The industry has created that perception and it's DEAD WRONG.

 

[Cry Havoc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpeezy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry, but that's not true at all. In some games, sound plays just as big a part if not bigger. The only game I really play where sound is this important is CS 1.6. I know I sound like a broken record, but it's true. In a league or scrimmage setting, sound is huge. If you know what the sounds mean, it can often be more important than aim.

So you're saying that hearing footsteps equates to a kill? That's not true at all. How many maps do you need to hear footsteps from 60 yards away? How many maps have a clear line of sight for 60 yards? Aztec? Dust2? 1.6 is a game full of obstacles and constricted maps, and even then, hearing steps does not mean you're going to have an opportunity to take someone out. Elite players aren't going to run as much anyway, therefore superior sound is less essential (but still important), as walking always remains silent. And if a person needs the best sound to dominate pubs, well, I don't want to see their CAL record.

Quote:

I'd probably chalk it up as 50% sound, 50% skill in CS 1.6.

Far too many obstacles in 1.6 to state such a claim. Especially since 1.6 is notorious for having less than stellar audio. You really want to say you get 50% of your kills based on audio? Last I checked, for 100% of kills you still have to aim and hit the guy. All the headphones in the world will not help you if you can't connect the bullet to his or her head.

Quote:

I do agree that skill is the key component here. However, that doesn't mean that you have to overcome your own equipment on purpose. Good equipment absolutely helps. Do you see any pro golfers on the tour using rental equipment? Do you see pro skiers using junk? Why not? They have the skill don't they?

Isn't this exactly what I just pointed out? I was arguing in support of your equipment, if you read carefully. I simply stated that if a player cannot aim accurately, then knowing where someone is will only be of limited help. Clans I've played with and even in the pubs I play on, you have less than half a second to shoot someone before you're dead. There are many experienced players out there that only need to hear one bullet and they're turning, firing, headshotting you before you can recenter your crosshairs. Individuals who average 5 kills to every 15-20 deaths (or even players who break even on pubs) are not going to be aided greatly by superior headphones, because not only will they still miss, they aren't going to realize how to use the sound to their advantage.

Quote:

I'm 43 years old and I'm still extremely competitive in FPS games where most of our opponents are less than half my age. So either I'm Superman or my equipment is giving me an advantage. As much as I'd LIKE to believe the former, I long ago realized that the latter is much more in play here.

So you're saying that because you're 43, only your equipment is contributing to your abilities? It's not your skill, your ability to center a mouse on a few pixels and fire? I know a crapload of kids who are "in the prime of their lives" and still get so frustrated with CS and CS:S because they never realize that you need to stop holding down the 1 button and actually aim for a change. I have never really understood the age thing as a rationale for why someone should be less effective. This isn't the NBA, and the most unathletic 300 pound person could be dominant at Source and 1.6 if he works at it and tries to improve every day.

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It's not like an average mouse is going to put the pointer in the wrong spot or not allow you to point at the spot you want.

So you're saying that a $4 ball mouse is equal to a G5? And you say that -I'm- making biased assumptions about the differences in performance from product to product?

Quote:

This concept that audio isn't that important is my biggest hurdle. The industry has created that perception and it's DEAD WRONG.

If this is in reference to me, please show me where I stated this. I have used good audio countless times to get kills. Just "having" good audio isn't enough -- that was my point. Someone can "hear" footsteps and still not understand how to move properly to take advantage of that noise. Someone can "hear" from 60 yards off and still lack the skill to hit the target.

 

[Agrajag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cry Havoc /img/forum/go_quote.gif I simply stated that if a player cannot aim accurately, then knowing where someone is will only be of limited help. Clans I've played with and even in the pubs I play on, you have less than half a second to shoot someone before you're dead.

Come play GRAW2 with us and you'll see what I'm talking about. I hear most of my targets long before I see them and much sooner than they hear or see me. It's one of the reasons I'm not impressed with COD4. Audio is important there but is more critical in a game map larger than my living room.

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So you're saying that because you're 43, only your equipment is contributing to your abilities? It's not your skill

No, but my "skills" improved DRAMATICALLY after moving over to these. Again, as the author of the Sound Blaster book series, everyone out there sent me their headphones for free. None of them helped my gaming much until I came across these. I'd like to think I've gotten smarter and better with time but clearly equipment has had a major impact for me. I also see it with others quite often. Everyone's different but you'll have a hard time convincing me that equipment can't be a major factor in effectiveness.

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I have never really understood the age thing as a rationale for why someone should be less effective.

There are countless studies out there that show hand-eye coordination drops off heavily with age. Pro players see it most dramatically. It happens to everyone regardless.

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So you're saying that a $4 ball mouse is equal to a G5?

I'm saying I can do very well with a $20 mouse versus an $80 mouse. I can't do as well with a $40 headset as I can with these.

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If this is in reference to me

Not in the least. Chill. heheh I'm pointing out my biggest daily hurdle. That's it. Nothing to do with you.

Quote:

Someone can "hear" footsteps and still not understand how to move properly to take advantage of that noise. Someone can "hear" from 60 yards off and still lack the skill to hit the target.

And given the choice, wouldn't you rather hear them and work on the skills to kill them than not hear them at all? I suspect we're in agreement on that one.

 

[Bullveyr]

@Agrajag

signed

I know you have no idea "which amazon" gets them but maybe you know when the GX400 will be available in other shops (european or at least one with worldwide shipment)?

otherwise I have to wait until summer, when a friend can send me them from the USA, I'm not very patient

PS: It's realy hard without science background to convince people that Surround Headsets like the Speedlink Meduas aren't very good

 

[Agrajag]

Bull,

We're looking to go wider with the release as soon as possible but it's not going to happen soon. Amazon has been great with these so we're tied there for a bit.

We did the research to show the benefits of the current stuff and you see here already how hard it is to get people to see the benefit. Just the way it is.

The surround stuff is very much a gimmick. Think about it a bit and it'll come to you. The idea that surround, which works because of distance, can be easily emulated with drivers right next to each other, is a bit questionable.

Then there are two simple questions:

1. Where is the center channel? Is it floating in space in front of you? No, that's emulated. It's all emulated.

2. Name me FPS games built on a 5.1 engine. I won't hold my breath. heheh

When we grow ears around our head then I'll be interested. Until then it's stereo and time delay for me.

 

[Trepid!ty]

Any head-fi members willing to buy a pair from amazon then send them to Australia? UPS is very good for international and I can use paypal or whatever's easiest and payment up front.

Otherwise it might have to be ER-4P's with an attached mic but i hate cords so the integrated mic is ftw.

Agrajag is it an exclusive with Amazon right now? I could put you onto a few big distributors in Australia that would want to stock them here.

 

[Agrajag]

We have distributors all over the world but Amazon offered us a deal to be our exclusive launch partner so we're stuck with them for now. Believe me, I'd love to get them to you.

Heck if you nail shipping to a tee and send off the PayPal, I'll send them to you. At least you know who I work for. heheh

 

[Bullveyr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trepid!ty /img/forum/go_quote.gif Any head-fi members willing to buy a pair from amazon then send them to Australia? UPS is very good for international and I can use paypal or whatever's easiest and payment up front.

#2

 

[Foe-hammer]

Agrajag,

You have me interested in the GX400s. I only game on the 360, and mainly with FPS. I'm currently using optical TOSlink connected to a Dolby Headphone receiver. From there it goes to a dedicated headphone amp (CI VHP-2), and ends with my AKG K601 headphones. I get great detail and 3D sound imaging with my setup. I'm particularly impressed with DOLBY Headphone Technology (DH). When i turn DH on the soundstage opens by 10 fold, and sound 3D placement is pin point accurate. When i turn off DH, the sound stage sucks, and i have a hard time locating sound placement. So please don't tell me DH doesn't work, and is a gimmick. My 2 questions, are:

1) How would the GX400 work with Dolby Headphone Tech?

2) How would the GX400 mic work with the 360?

Thanks...

 

[Lazarus]

Foe-Hammer: I don't think he is saying that DH is a gimmick just that 8 driver headsets are a gimmick.

Agrajag: I also would like to know how the GX400s sound with DH ( as the Auzentech X-Fi Prelude 7.1 Sound Card i just ordered has DH ) also I tried gaming once with a pair of IEM's when a headset i had broke. BUT the IEM's seemed to make me sick after awhile. i think they where messing with my inner ear balance. Is this something you get used to?

 

[Agrajag]

Foe, DH I can't speak to as I haven't tested it. What I have read about it is that it appears to be every bit as realistic as the 3D engines the developers already use.

However, having not used it personally, I'd be lying if I said I knew for sure how it worked. The product is designed for PC gaming and Dolby gaming on a PC is virtually non-existent (licensing costs).

With regard to inner ear balance, that's a new one on me. I can see how that might happen but I've yet to encounter that concern from anyone I've spoken with. I've certainly never had that problem.

 

[Gautama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agrajag /img/forum/go_quote.gif Foe, DH I can't speak to as I haven't tested it. What I have read about it is that it appears to be every bit as realistic as the 3D engines the developers already use.

Was that meant as a pun, or no?

 

[cooldude1015]

Actually to my knowledge the Auzen Prelude doesn't have DH.

The following Dolby® technologies will not be supported on the X-Fi Prelude 7.1 due to feature overlap: Dolby® Pro Logic® IIX, Dolby® Virtual Speaker, and Dolby® Headphone.

Auzentech, Inc. Sound Cards. Audio You Can Believe In. World First soundcards for Music, HTPC, and Gaming.

I would like to know what receiver Foe-Hammer uses to get Dolby Headphone though.