[artpiggo]

I know lot of you are going to laugh at me for this post but I recommend when your purchase a new device to give it time to "break in", on my x800 I flashed a few ROMs to gain performance and bug fixes and the sound quality and output volume I had with the stock ROM was gone, so I was baffled then I found a developer and I asked if he could increase the headphone output volume in his custom kernel which he did cause that guy is just awesome and the same....just a bland recessed sound so I gave up that night and while listening to some tunes before bed it magically kicked in because the kernel finally settled in I had to drop the volume about 4 clicks down and the sound became more "present"....placebo? I did a full reset...same...at first bland then over time especially with HIFI on and a couple max volume spurts (not with headphones on of course) the same magic happened. I browsed the system folder I found the xml files the developer edited and this phone has many xml files for output, dolby and sampling....long story short I returned to full stock ROM and recovery and I got the same low output "internal DAC" sound and over two hours its the same I had to drop the volume and I'm hearing full sound with amazing vocals, my guess is the system takes time to check the audio circuitry for defects and load the xml files which tell the OS how to handle audio playback, I tested with different headphones and all of them I had to lower the volume and I did the test with other people at the same volume and they asked if I did something. So those are my findings laugh or try it for yourself.

You may like to have a deep down discussion with @WindowsX. He is the owner of famous Fidelizer program. He can help you verify whether kind of "burning-in firmware" has real effect to the sound.

From my experience, when using his fidelizer, I can sense improvement since first second I listen to so I am not quite sure in this...

 

[Gojira]

http://www.vivo.co.in/About/
 

 
With the creativity and technology, Vivo keeps innovating. In 2012, Vivo created the X1, the first Smartphone to incorporate a Hi-Fi chip, resulting in an unparalleled audio experience. Pioneering this technology, it has been included in all Vivo smartphones ever since. From then on, the innovation never stops:

1. 2012, Xplay, world’s first Hi-Fi smartphone integrated with OPA2604 amplifying power
2. 2013, Vivo X3, world’s first Hi-Fi smartphone integrated with ES9018 decoding chip
3. 2013, Xplay3s, world’s first 2K display Hi-Fi music smartphone with extreme display performance
4. 2014, X5Max, world’s slimmest smartphone with a totally new framework of Hi-Fi 2.0

From 2011, Vivo has been certified in over 100 countries and regions worldwide, choosing the path of internationalization and moved on. Currently Vivo is present in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Myanmar, Vietnam and Philippines. Vivo entered India in Dec., 2014 and in a short time span, Vivo has established itself as a Hi-fi & Smart brand.

 
Some points about Vivo:
 
1) Only officially available in India, Malaysia, Thailand, Myanmar, Vietnam, and the Philippines and online sales seem to be discouraged. So to a large extent you have to actually live in or travel to one of those 6 countries in order to buy one for a reasonable price. Note that China is not on that last despite the fact that a lot of their research and manufacturing seems to be done in that country. Here in the Philippines only a small subset of phone models are available. Probably the same is true for other countries on that list. I think India has all of their models and I think Malaysia has a lot of them. Not sure about Thailand.
 
2) Vivo is the only mobile phone manufacturer who consistently wants to make their brand be associated with good sounding audio and backs up the marketing by actually putting quality non-SoC DACs and amps in many or most of their phones. This alone should make them our friend. LeTV has clearly abandoned us and most of the other manufacturers don't even attempt to have good audio in anything but their flagship phones (Hello LG!). Even some low priced Chinese manufacturers like Umi, Ramos, and Bluboo are following this trend although in that case the prices on their cheaper phones are so low that it is more understandable. Others like Lenovo treat it more as an oddity to only go in one or two niche devices. Although to be fair Lenovo does have one affordable phone which appears to have excellent non-SoC audio, but that phone has been discontinued and afaik they have no plans to introduce any new models like that. Unfortunately Vivo seems to have a lot of trouble competing in terms of both keeping up with features and with pricing which brings us to the next point.
 
3) Vivo is a new company. They only just started in 2011 and weren't even available at all in their home country of India until 2014. This means they have room to improve, but it also means that they may lack the manufacturing experience that other companies have. Maybe they will have reliability problems? I've heard a few reports of reliability problems with their phones. It might also explain their high prices. It may take more time to become cost efficient enough to compete with the Chinese.
 
That page claims that all Vivo smartphones have HiFi audio, but that is clearly not the case. Maybe that is something they originally intended but backed off from for some reason. I just hope they don't go flagship only HiFi eventually. It is interesting that they price their flagship phones so high despite the fact that they are exclusively selling in only 6 poor third world countries. In fact they don't make a single affordable (by third world standards) phone with at least a 720p display that has HiFi audio. Admittedly here in the Philippines people are willing to spend a large percentage of their incomes on a mobile phone. Many still have candy bar phones though.

 

[Gojira]

  They both seem to use the same chip or at least they have the same VID/PID.
 
I certainly wasn't expecting it to hold up that well against the OpenDAC HD (PCM1792A+OPA1612+TPA6120A2)

 
Um...may I ask in what sense it has 'held up' against that DAC? I mean who has done these listening tests directly comparing the two? You? If so I'd like to see your review post. Do you have a link to it? I also wonder how their 3.5mm adapter DAC compares with Apple's.
 
I don't think the iPhone 7 or the 2nd or 3rd series LeTV phones should be on that list though even if they do well in multiple listening tests. Any phone at least running Lollipop 5.1 can be used with an external DAC and amp. We don't need them to supply us with such things even if it is included with their phone. If I wanted an external DAC and amp I would buy one and then just buy some cheap phone. Why buy some expensive LeTV phone if you aren't even going to use their audio?
 
This leads to another question: Will their dac-amp 'adapter' work in any phone with a USB-C port? Basically LeTV has gone from differentiating themselves with unusually good phone audio (AKG Le HiFi) to the other extreme of deleting audio from their phones entirely. You can use their included external DAC-amp or buy an Audioquest Dragonfly or whatever but if you want to get audio out of their phone you will need to supply your own audio chips (BYOAC). Other manufacturers include internal audio chips for free and let you use a USB DAC and amp combo if or when you want to. All LeTV has done is take something away. Sure if their included external DAC-amp sounds good that will be nice especially if they sell it separately so we can all buy one, but if we are going to give credit to their phones for the quality of their external DAC-amp then why not give the same credit to any phone with a USB-C port? Or will the device also work on a USB type B port? Then we'd have to include pretty much every mobile phone on the non-SoC audio phone list.
 
Qualcomm SoC audio is not that bad. Not great but in some models like the Xiaomi Redmi 2 (410) or the ZTE Zmax 2 (400) pretty decent and in fact better than some seperate DAC amp combos like the one in my Flash Plus 2. So the least LeTV could have done is leave in a Qualcomm SoC audio path to a headphone jack. In fact that superior solution of both internal and external audio is available in nearly every other phone that has a Qualcomm SoC, a USB port, and that can at least be upgraded to Android 5.1+.
 
I'll give LeTV some credit if they can manage to sell a very cheap external USB-C DAC-amp, essentially undercutting companies already making such things for much higher prices, but I still won't buy their series 2 or 3 phones. I might buy their 3.5mm adapter DAC-amp though if it is small and works with USB type B. Maybe it can fix the audio in my awful Flash Plus 2 and function as a cheap way to "fix" the audio in any phone whose 3.5mm audio jack has broken as mine has. I'm guessing LeTV may not want to sell their adapters though even to replace lost or broken ones precisely because of the way it emphasizes that nearly any phone can have exactly the same audio. I'm guessing owners of the second and third series phones are going to be SOL if they lose their little 3.5mm adapter or the cable starts getting intermittent because I don't think LeTV offers any replacement accessories. Of course at that point you can just buy a real USB-DAC and external amp. That is what you are essentially committing to when you buy one of their jackless phones in the first place. You basically start out in the situation I am in now with my broken headphone jack except that you get a free external DAC-amp you can use if you want.

 

[seb30]

I have an iphone 4 and 5 (personally I prefer 4), but what are they compared to today's smartphone (audio) ?

 

[NiHaoMike]

The stock DAC didn't exhibit any audible noise when playing a blank track and a very minor, almost unnoticeable glitch on plug in. (Note that applies if you plug the headphones into the DAC and then plug the DAC into the phone. If you plug the DAC into the phone first, there would be a much bigger glitch as the microphone bias makes contact with the transducer terminals.) Subjectively, the audio is very clear, with the OpenDAC HD just managing to edge it out. The maximum output voltage is obviously lower than what the OpenDAC HD or even most onboard audio can do, but it is still enough to get plenty of volume with my Xiaomi Piston 3. I think that might actually be partly why it does so well, not going overboard with maximum level in order to allow a greater real world SNR.
 
On the scope, it exhibits no detectable droop even with a heavy load which was surprising since I was used to small DACs being bad at it. That's one of the advantages of a DC coupled output stage.
 
I don't have any other device with a USB-C port but I think the stock DAC will work with any USB host that can do USB audio. I'm having difficulty finding a USB hub that plugs into a USB-A port (as on most PCs) and gives out several USB-C host mode ports. (Preferably with USB PD support to be future proof.) And Benson Leung rejects all USB-A to USB-C female adapters, citing that they're against the spec and that using them risks breaking stuff. It's looking like that if I want to put a USB-C port in my PC, I'll have to get a USB-C card, but it's hard to find one that also does USB PD.

 

[Gojira]

Yes...well I'm still a bit unclear as to whether you did some kind of listening test to see whether the 3.5mm CDLA/USB adapter device sounds good when playing music. That is what I think most people in this thread are concerned about. Either music sounds good (and sufficiently loud) when being played or it doesn't.The noise floor is not really a major concern of mine at least. If the music is loud and lively and musical and detailed with a relatively flat tonal balance I will be happy regardless of what the device sounds like when no music is being played. Interesting if the device will work with any mobile phone USB port. LeTV really may not want to sell replacements or maybe they will try to verify that the buyer really does have an LeTV series 2/3 phone. Apple at least has a proprietary connector to prevent their competitors from also getting Apple audio, but USB C is an open standard. In a year all smartphones will probably have it.

 

[GouryellaIV]

  Thanks, GouryellaIV. Wow. What a list. Lots of raw data to work with from that. I think that may be the most useful post in this whole long mega-thread. I just hope I am not the only one willing to risk trying unknown, unproven brands so that we can test more of them. I got burned badly, but the headfier who bought the Bluboo Maya Max is quite happy with his purchase.
 
Some additions: LeTV x800, Lenovo X3 Lite, Bluboo Maya Max, and Umi Max. I also strongly suspect (but can't prove) that the Vivo Y51 has non-SoC audio regardless of what devicespecification says. I listened to it and at the very least it seems too loud to be Qualcomm SoC audio. Also it has a certain sweet/musical quality that I've certainly never heard with other SoC audio. Vivo also lists it among their phones with HiFi audio and it sounds much, much better than the Y55 I listened to that lacks the HiFi audio. Admittedly there is some evidence that the Snapdragon 410 may have better audio than some of the later chips, but I have listened to other phones with Snap410 audio (Redmi 2, Asus) and they did not sound as good as the Y51 and the difference is not subtle.
 
It is interesting to see how Vivo utterly dominates the list in terms of the number of models with non-SoC audio. And Vivo seems to be experimenting with a large variety of manufacturers. I wonder if they will eventually settle on one. Apple has none? Samsung only has the Galaxy S7. Even LG only has 3 models. Of all the phones on this list other than really old phones like the MX4 I think Vivo may be the hardest to source. If you don't happen to live in or travel to Southeast Asia or India or maybe China they seem almost unavailable even online. Aliexpress does seem to have one vendor who sells them, but they are charging at least a $50 - $60 markup over local pricing making Vivo pricing even less competitive than it already is. Even with local pricing they tend to be overpriced for the features you get. May have something to do with Vivo being Indian-Chinese in the way that Lenovo is American-Chinese. Pure Chinese companies may have a pricing advantage. Are there any Indians or maybe Malaysians here with a more complete selection of Vivo phones locally who can check local prices? Here in the Philippines there are only 4 models available so far: Y51, Y55(new), V3, and V3Max.
 
I think a nice addition to this list would be aliexpress pricing (because cheap and has even obscure chinese phones) and maybe sources for the data on the audio chips if there are mulitiple ones.

Checked on Vivo's official chinese website about the Y51, and theres no mentions about any audio chip as they would show in other smartphones. Also i found a few Vivo models on Alibaba, not cheap though.
 
Also had a hard time trying to find the X800's DAC chip model, most websites say that it is ESS costumized, which is not because there is NO AKG certification in the box of the phone, but then i stumbled upon this https://www.avito.ru/moskva/telefony/letv_x800_850386377 website that says it has the Sabre ES9018K2M, now the box does say that it has a Sabre DAC, but not costumized by AKG, so im assuming this is the correct DAC model.
 
 
Other than that, i added Maya Max, X800, UMI Max and X3 Lite to the list, i updated the image. Thanks for the mentions
 
 
*Update*
 
To see image list, see post #5453
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/662095/best-smartphone-for-audiophile/5445#post_13033200

 

[Gojira]

Interesting that there even is a Chinese website since the Indian website claims that they only sell their phones in India and Southeast Asia. No mention at all of selling phones in China, but apparntly they do. Maybe they don't want Indians to know that they do? If they do sell in the Chinese market it is strange that aliexpress only has one seller and their prices are ridiculous. If the Y51 really does use Qualcomm SoC audio that would lead to an interesting question: why does it sound so different and so much louder than other phones with exactly the same SoC? Seems very strange to me.
 
I also did a direect comparison with the Y55 which has a Snapdragon 430 rather than the 410 that the Y51 has and the sound between the two is dramatically different. Anyone would notice the difference. Not just someone with golden ears. It would seem surprising that there would be such a huge difference in sound quality and volume between the 410 and 430 SoC audio. It doesn't really matter that much to me personally if the Y51 does not have HiFi audio since it lacks even a 720p display which is a minimum resolution for my needs, but I think it really does have non SoC audio chips.
 
I've asked sellers/reps at Vivo dealers about that phone and they always claim that the Y51 does indeed have HiFi audio. Again it doesn't really matter because that particular model has such a low resolution display but I suspect their web sites are not much more accurate about such things than they are about what countries they sell in or whether or not all of their phones have HiFi audio. Vivo seems a bit disorganized to me. Doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about their products. Next time I get to a Vivo dealer I'll see if they have anything on paper which says the Y51 is a HiFi model. Then snap a photo of it.
 
Also the Vivo X9 seems to have an AK4376.
 
According to devicespecifications the Lenovo A7010 and what they call the X3 Youth, the one we were discussing in this thread as the Vibe X3 Lite, are not the same phone. Devicespecifications and GSMArena both list "Vibe X3 Lite" as an alias for the A7010 but if true I think we were using that alias incorrectly here. According to GSMArena another Alias for the A7010 is the Vibe K4 Note and I've actually listened to that phone and was not impressed. So I certainly hope that was not the same phone that was reviewed here.
 
They both have the same SoC, the same 5.5" 1080p display, and the same primary camera but the A7010 has it's cores running at 1.5 Ghz and has a 32GB ROM and a 3300mah battery compared to 1.3 Ghz and 16GB and 3400mah for the X3 Youth or X3C78. As often with Lenovo the model names and numbers are a confusing mess, but the phone we were talking about here before and what was actually bought and tested by a headfier was the X3C78, the 16GB model. Devicespecification lists different specs for these models in their audio section with the x3c78 having the audio chips listed in the chart but only the Wolfson chip for the A7010. Do you have a source that contradicts that information? I just checked the specs for the A7010 on a Lenovo web site (http://shop.lenovo.com/ae/en/smartphones/a-series/a7010/#tab-tech_specs) and it also only lists a Wolfson WM8281 audio codec under audio. Maybe that qualifies the phone to make the list, but it seems like quite different audio from the X3C78 that a headfier purchased.
 
If I search Aliexpress for the Vibe X3 Lite it lists a device with 16GB and 3400mah, what devicespecifications calls the X3 Youth with aliases of x3c78, k51c78, and Lemon X3 Youth. So aliexpress vendors are making the same 'mistake' we have with the alias Vibe X3 Lite. The problem is it has a kind of logic because essentially that is what the x3c78 phone is, a lite version of the X3. Confusing as hell. The important question is really whether the A7010 does have the same audio chips as the Lemon X3 Youth or x3c78 or whatever you want to call that phone. GSMarena calls it the Vibe X3 C78.
 
Incidentally if I search for A7010 or Vibe K4 Note on aliexpress I get nothing. It is still listed on Lenovo's web sites though. I have never seen the x3c78 listed on a Lenovo web site but it is available on aliexpress. The Vibe K4 Note is definitely still available for purchase here in the Philippines, but I don't think the x3c78 was ever available here.

 

[RicardoB]

You may like to have a deep down discussion with @WindowsX. He is the owner of famous Fidelizer program. He can help you verify whether kind of "burning-in firmware" has real effect to the sound.

From my experience, when using his fidelizer, I can sense improvement since first second I listen to so I am not quite sure in this...

I'll try to do that or maybe get some equipment because it's been bugging me for years since I've been trying to pull the best audio out of every phone I've owned with kernels and scripts maybe I finally drove myself insane lol

 

[RicardoB]

For around $200 or less for good non-SoC audio it seems we have few options with at least one headfier vouching for the sound quality. Some of the inexpensive options, particularly the untested/untried brands, may have serious reliability problems and may also use DACs and amps which although separate are actually worse in SQ than Qualcomm SoC audio. My Flash Plus 2 is a perfect example. Worse than Qualcomm SoC audio and very unreliable with poor quality control. It's nice if a phone can last more than 6 weeks without breaking. In less than 2 months I am already shopping for a new phone. So we should not forget the advantage of buying from a company with at least some history of manufacturing reliable devices.

1) Lenovo (reliable/proven) Vibe/Lemon X3 Youth/C78 @$125: 5.5" 1080p, Mediatek octacore, 2GB/16GB, 3400 mah, Lollipop (5.1), discontinued but still widely available.
2) Bluboo (unproven/unknown afaik) Maya Max @ $136-$150: 6" 720p, Mediatek octacore, 3GB/32GB, 4200mah, Marshmallow [note: only dual band UMTS-3G--most phones have quad band]
3) LeTv / LeEco Le 1 Pro x800 @ $155: 5.5" 2k, Snap810 octa, 4GB/32GB, 3000 mah, Lollipop, discontinued but still easily available
4) Xiaomi Mi Note (non-pro series 1 only) @ $160: 5.7" 1080p, Snap801 quad, 3GB/64GB, 3000 mah, Lollipop, discontinued but still available to some degree
5) LeTV/ LeEco Le Max x900 @ $215: 6.3" 2k, Snap810 octa, 4GB/32GB, 3300 mah, Lollipop, discontinued but still easily available


Honorable mention to the Vivo Y51 @$120: 5" 960 x 540, Snap410 quad, 2GB/16GB, 2350mah, triband UMTS, no LTE except in India I think, discontinued afaik but widely available here in the Philippines. I have personally listened to this phone and it has excellent sound compared to most phones I have heard, but I have not listened to any of the phones mentioned in this thread. I have no idea what is inside, but the sound is so good that it seems impossible that it could be the native Qualcomm SoC sound. From what I have heard Vivo has highly questionable reliability, but their phones with "Hifi" as a feature are the best sounding phones I have heard so far. Unfortunately their phones tend to be behind in features and overpriced. They seem more dedicated to sound quality than maybe any other phone manufacturer so hopefully they can improve their features and pricing to be more competitive. It is unfortunate that not all of their phones have the 'hifi' sound.

Promising but untested phones:
1) PPTV King 7 @ $120: 6" 2k, MT octa, 3GB/32GB, 3610 mah, Lollipop

2) Ulefone Vienna @ $140: 5.5" 1080p, MT octa, 3GB/32GB, 3250 mah, Lollipop

I find the King 7 to be particularly interesting. A 6" 2k phablet with an ESS Sabre ES9018K2M DAC and a Maxim MAX97220 amp (Fiio Q1) for only $120. I wish I had bought that one instead of my horrible sounding Flash Plus 2 phone. At the very least I would have had a 2k display for the same price as the 1080p one. What swayed me was that Alcatel/TCL/Flash had a reputation and a presence where I currently live, but I had never heard of PPTV. Hopefully someone will get a chance to listen to the PPTV soon so that the bang-for-buck list can be completed. The Ulefone has an NXP dac/amp. The same brand of amp in my Flash Plus 2 which doesn't seem to get higher volume than a Qualcomm SoC amp. So I'd guess the PPTV is a better bet and cheaper too.

The Umi Super/Max has been mentioned/suggested here but it was also trashed and uses a totally unknown Awinic DAC.

Prices based on aliexpress.

Update: It seems that "Vibe X3 Lite" is actually an alias for the Lenovo Vibe K4 Note or A7010 which is an entirely different phone from the X3C78 that was reviewed here. Youth or Lemon is the correct name rather than Lite. If you search for "Vibe x3 lite" on aliexpress you will get the correct model though: the C78/Youth version of the Vibe/Lemon X3.

You know the Lenovo was my first choice until I read that only the "Vibe" version has the quality setup, so any model that has C78 has the hi-fi setup? Also I wouldve ordered the King 7 and tested it since I needed a big screen to watch movies at work but ive read the software is horrible, max brightness is very low and it has more of a tablet software so it has no dial pad, there is a better software floating around but the instructions to actually install it is no good, I'll do some more research though but another problem is the DAC might not even work with all apps which is partly the reason some phones with good setups fail to impress ....good hardware.... bad software, I will most likely try the Maya Max as my movie/music backup phone if the DAC actually works on all apps.

 

[artpiggo]

I'll try to do that or maybe get some equipment because it's been bugging me for years since I've been trying to pull the best audio out of every phone I've owned with kernels and scripts maybe I finally drove myself insane lol

Talking about Level of insanity. What level are you now?

Lv0 understand difference sound when changing solder/plug used in cable.
Lv1 understand difference sound from digital cable
Lv2 understand difference sound when changing battery of player
Lv3 understand difference sound from ethernet cable while you do streaming in-house.
Lv4 understand difference sound from just "copying" music file from different sources
Lv5 understand difference sound when you use different finger to select music

 

[RicardoB]

Talking about Level of insanity. What level are you now?

Lv0 understand difference sound when changing solder/plug used in cable.
Lv1 understand difference sound from digital cable
Lv2 understand difference sound when changing battery of player
Lv3 understand difference sound from ethernet cable while you do streaming in-house.
Lv4 understand difference sound from just "copying" music file from different sources
Lv5 understand difference sound when you use different finger to select music

Lmao! Thankfully I'm not on any of those levels....number 5 is definitely another level

 

[artpiggo]

Lmao! Thankfully I'm not on any of those levels....number 5 is definitely another level

It proves that you are not insane at all.

 

[Dobrescu George]

Talking about Level of insanity. What level are you now?

Lv0 understand difference sound when changing solder/plug used in cable.
Lv1 understand difference sound from digital cable
Lv2 understand difference sound when changing battery of player
Lv3 understand difference sound from ethernet cable while you do streaming in-house.
Lv4 understand difference sound from just "copying" music file from different sources
Lv5 understand difference sound when you use different finger to select music

 
Placebo is a powerful thing in this world! 

 

[NiHaoMike]

  Yes...well I'm still a bit unclear as to whether you did some kind of listening test to see whether the 3.5mm CDLA/USB adapter device sounds good when playing music. That is what I think most people in this thread are concerned about. Either music sounds good (and sufficiently loud) when being played or it doesn't.The noise floor is not really a major concern of mine at least. If the music is loud and lively and musical and detailed with a relatively flat tonal balance I will be happy regardless of what the device sounds like when no music is being played. Interesting if the device will work with any mobile phone USB port. LeTV really may not want to sell replacements or maybe they will try to verify that the buyer really does have an LeTV series 2/3 phone. Apple at least has a proprietary connector to prevent their competitors from also getting Apple audio, but USB C is an open standard. In a year all smartphones will probably have it.

In summary, it works very well with IEMs. Even the rather demanding Klipsch S3 is handled with no problems. Plenty of volume and very clear with great detail. There is Dolby Atmos, which you can turn on and off as you desire. (The frequency response is quite flat with it off.) The following is a guide on how to enable advanced settings:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/le-pro3/how-to/howto-configure-dolby-atmos-equalizer-t3495376
 
I wouldn't expect it to work very well with high impedance studio headphones. The low voltage output is designed for mobile use.