[KT66]

The last thing my ES10s need is more sub bass !

 

[Bill-P]

I don't think many have realizde it but at stock, the ES10 doesn't have much sub-bass at all. What you're hearing is just the pressure of mid bass impact. Play something with nothing but sub bass (classical?), and you'll find that the ES10 becomes a bit thin and quite veiled since lower treble and bass at stock are pushed forward quite a bit. Or more like midrange is pushed far back.

The ES10 is capable of very detailed and smooth midrange once you take away Audio Technica's means of dampening that midrange. Someone mentioned that the ESW9 (and ESW10) had a liquid smooth tube-like midrange that the ES10 couldn't match, but I don't think that's true at all. Audio Technica most likely voiced the ES10 like they voiced their full-size headphones. Too bad they couldn't spend more time to properly tune the ES10 for a better sound. It could have been a much more mature ESW9.

Oh well, perhaps they wanted to sell more ESW9.

 

[baronkatz]

 
Compared to the stock ES10 (thanks to Baronkatz for letting me hear the stock ES10 again), the modded ES10 is a very different beast.
 
I was able to get more midrange, the sound was either as smooth or even smoother than the ESW9 from top to bottom, and bass is far tighter than stock ES10, with more sub bass for an immersive experience. I was really satisfied with my ES10, because it had very good clarity and depth at this point. It's not just me, since a friend of Baronkatz's (hey, Jon!) also confirmed this with me.
 
We also had an Edition 8 handy... and while I must admit that I liked the soundstage of the Edition 8, and also that it would beat the stock ES10 at pretty much everything (except for bass and the ED8 is very sibilant), I thought it did not measure up to my modded ES10. I think Jon and Baronkatz will have more to say on the matter.
 
So the ES10 does have room to grow. Even at this point, I don't think I have done everything I could.
 
I was thinking of selling the ES10 after turning it into an ESW10 and instead just move on to a different Audio Technica headphone. But... thanks to the W1000, I have seen a new limit.

Of course, thanks for coming over and demoing, we got to do a lot of headphone swaps. I still think the stock one is a better Sound Signature for me... but I can understand that all ears are different and you like a certain sound more than I. As we discovered I am quite sensitive to high frequencies and the modded ES10s were a bit bright and lean on the bass for me.
 
They were definately different from the ESW9s and less sibilant. The sibilance and reverb kind of sound is what kills the ESW9s although they do sound better with slower acoustic music than the stock ES10. Jon agreed that your modified ES10 was better for a certain kind of music, such as acoustic, vocal, etc... but not really good for EDM, IMHO.
 
I don't really like the soundstage on the ED8, it sonds closed to me and the ES10 is vastly superior in both clarity and sound to me. Partly due to the bigger and better driver that AT uses. The ED8 is VERY bass shy and very sibilant IMHO too. I prefer your modded ES10 to the ED8 but I even prefer my old Denon flagships the AH-D950s to them as they are semi-open and sound amazing. They have better bass and soundstage than most headphones I have heard. The ED8s have a surround sound trick by where they place the driver, but it's more of a trick than anything to me....
 
I agee, you should make some port holes for bass for your ES10, it lacks that body...
 
The ES10 and W1000 are different beasts and were set up for different types of audiences. I think the ES10 was marketed more towards the EDM crowd and the W1000 more towards the Jazz crowd, IMHO. Of course you modified yours to sound more similar to the W1000, but most of us who have the ES10, have it because we like to listen to EDM, etc... My advice is: DONT SELL, keep both. Listen to the W1000 at home and in the office, and keep the ES10 for on the road use, that way you get the best of both worlds...
 

I don't think many have realizde it but at stock, the ES10 doesn't have much sub-bass at all. What you're hearing is just the pressure of mid bass impact. Play something with nothing but sub bass (classical?), and you'll find that the ES10 becomes a bit thin and quite veiled since lower treble and bass at stock are pushed forward quite a bit. Or more like midrange is pushed far back.

The ES10 is capable of very detailed and smooth midrange once you take away Audio Technica's means of dampening that midrange. Someone mentioned that the ESW9 (and ESW10) had a liquid smooth tube-like midrange that the ES10 couldn't match, but I don't think that's true at all. Audio Technica most likely voiced the ES10 like they voiced their full-size headphones. Too bad they couldn't spend more time to properly tune the ES10 for a better sound. It could have been a much more mature ESW9.

Oh well, perhaps they wanted to sell more ESW9.

I agree but I'm not a big fan of bloated sub-bass like on the ED8, It can get annoying, and I prefer the punchier midd bass. The ESW9 doesn't have a tube like sound, if you want a tube sound, get a tube amp with a good pair of transparent and maybe bright headphones. The tubes will tone it down without getting rid of a lot of clarity. Some tube amps can do the opposite, for example when trying the ESW9s with the Schiit Lyr and Valhalla, I was super impressed with them, they had a sound similar to the iQube for me for some reason - IE they opened the sound up and made the highs more sparkly. Those are two tube amps, but they made the sound LESS warm but a lot more clear and open for me. Warm is not what you always want, neutral is the best to expeerience the true music but it can be boring...
 
The ESW9 is more mature why? Becuase it has a warmer sound? That's like saying pepole who listen to Jazz music are more mature than people who listen to EDM? Well that is true for a lot of people, maybe Jazz fans are a lot older than EDM listeners, but I know that's not what you meant. The ESW9s aren't as crystal clear, they have more sibilance, and don't isolate nearly as well. The ESW9s might look more mature with wooden cups, but the ES10s are an improvement by a mile and a defeinite upgrade....

 

[Bill-P]

Yeah, I decided to keep the ES10. I tried to replicate what Audio Technica did to the W1000 on the ES10 with good success. It causes soundstage and depth to improve more than what it was before, though the W1000 still has amazing imaging for some reason (I bet it's just the drivers' tuning).
 
As for the "mature" comment, I didn't mean that the ESW9 was more mature than the ES10... or that any sound signature is better than the other.
 
I mean... instead of making the ESW11LTD, Audio Technica could have taken the ES10 drivers, put some wool felt in the back instead of fiberglass, slap a bigger version of the ESW9 ear pads on, and it'll be a worthy upgrade over the ESW9, and also worthy of being a limited edition headphone. I wasn't super impressed with the ESW11LTD. It seems like Audio Technica tried to tune it for a different purpose altogether.
 
The drivers of the ES10 are capable of so much more than just EDM. I tried to strike a balance with my mods. It may not excel at EDM, but it's decent enough for a wider range of music, and especially good for vocals. Man, I was surprised because last time I compared them, the ESW9 still had slightly smoother midrange, but not this time around.
 
And by "smooth", I don't mean "warm". I get the feeling a lot of people mistake "warmth" with "smooth" and "sweet". "Warmth" to me means... a more prominent lower midrange or upper bass frequency. "Sweetness" to me is a combination of more prominent lower and middle midrange frequencies and just enough "smoothness". And "smooth" to me really means that the drivers have good transient response, so they transition from one frequency smoothly to another without stuttering in between, causing a slight gap, or distortion that creates "grain" in the music.

 

[baronkatz]

 
I mean... instead of making the ESW11LTD, Audio Technica could have taken the ES10 drivers, put some wool felt in the back instead of fiberglass, slap a bigger version of the ESW9 ear pads on, and it'll be a worthy upgrade over the ESW9, and also worthy of being a limited edition headphone. I wasn't super impressed with the ESW11LTD. It seems like Audio Technica tried to tune it for a different purpose altogether.

Yes the ESW10s are much prettier than the ESW11s (although I haven't heard either). In fact the ESW10s are the prettiest of them all. The problem with making a LE is that it would raise the price and would make it hard for most commoners to buy. Although the ES10 is still quite expensive and rare compred to the ESW9 for example....
 
I wish they had made the ES10s Circumaural, if they had pads like the Signature DJ/Pro, and a tiny bit bigger housings, they could have made a portable circumaural to differentiate themselves more and make the headphones a lot more comfortable for long use... As there aren't many portable circumaurals besides the Ultrasones...

 

[Bill-P]

ESW10s sound exactly like my ES10. They are somewhat brighter than the ESW9.
 
And limited edition earsuit headphones don't cost a lot. It's too bad Audio Technica isn't looking to refresh the line as aggressively as they should. They released the ES700, and the ESW11, and that's it as far as I know.

 

[BobJS]

OK, I've got ES11W pads on my muddy ES10s ... can someone direct me to mod(s) to tighten the bass and bring out some high end sparkle?

 

[dallan]

The es10s are definitely my muddiest headphones but they are pretty good in a pinch anyway. Still better overall than the esw9 but don't measure up to the ed8 or sig pro by any means. If you listen to them exclusively over time they do sound good and generally fun. They are also very light and easy.

 

[Bill-P]

To make the ES10 brighter and generally increase its resolution, you can replace the yellow fiberglass material in the back with wool felt.
 
To make bass tighter, you can put line thin strips of foam along the enclosure.
 
Alternatively, just use the ESW9 ear pads instead of the ESW11 pads.
 
And I beg to differ. A well-modded ES10 can beat the ED8 pretty easily in terms of overall resolution and refinement. The ED8 sounds clearer than ES10 at stock, but that's just because Audio Technica is being cheap with their dampening technique (just like they are being cheap with the ear pads). If they had used wool felt in combination with some other materials, the ES10 would have been a completely different beast.

 

[dallan]

I don't even think they are a league apart, more like two leagues apart.  The two Ultrasones compare to the top closed home headphones and the ES10 is a lightweight portable.  I own them all and esw9.  The es10 isn't even as well balanced as the ESW11 and i have done head to head with the esw11 and the ED8's at a meet with groups of headfiers and there was no debate that the Ed8s killed the ESW11 and ES10.  They are just different beasts, not even a sound choice.  But if you like them, more power to you.

 

[Bill-P]

You just haven't heard my particular ES10 yet.
 
It's very different compared to the original. About the only thing it shares with the original is the drivers.
 
But that's precisely my point. Audio Technica had a good chance to turn the ES10 into a headphone that could take on the ED8.
 
And they decided not to.

 

[baronkatz]

  I don't even think they are a league apart, more like two leagues apart.  The two Ultrasones compare to the top closed home headphones and the ES10 is a lightweight portable.  I own them all and esw9.  The es10 isn't even as well balanced as the ESW11 and i have done head to head with the esw11 and the ED8's at a meet with groups of headfiers and there was no debate that the Ed8s killed the ESW11 and ES10.  They are just different beasts, not even a sound choice.  But if you like them, more power to you.

Just because the ES10 is a lightweight portable doesn't mean that it's any less capable than a top closed home headphone. Sure, the housing is smaller, but the driver is a lot bigger than the ED8 driver. I own the ED8 so am free to speak, especially after many hours of listening to both (I also own the ESW9). The ES10 has the most superior bass response of all of them combined, better than most top closed home headphones. The ED8s have bloated sub-bass and hardly any mid-bass, it's way way wayyyyyy brighter than the ES10 and even seemed brighter than my T770Pro 32Ohm LE which I just sold. The brightness on the ED8s hurts my ears, and the ES10s are at the very limit of what I can call acceptable (the Denon D950s as well).
 
I think it also depends on what you listen to. If I listened to a lot of Jazz the ED8 would be great for that, but they are just peircing for EDM. The reason I bought them was that they have some of the best Isolation with great looks and the best build quality I have seen from almost any headphone. I couldn't really find all of this in a portable, however, the ES10 is so much more exciting and fun, the ED8 is far from well balanced or neutral. The Sig Pro and DT770Pro (used by recording professionals worldwide for decades) is WAY more balanced as you can see in this graph: =3961&graphID[]=1053&graphID[]=2231&graphID[]=1593&scale=30]http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=3961&graphID[]=1053&graphID[]=2231&graphID[]=1593&scale=30 Unfortunately they don't list the ES10 on this website and I don't like the ESW9 as much as my ES10 as the ESW9 is the most coloured. I think the only reason the ED8 sounds like it does is because of the driver position and the reaso it has that sub bass is because of its isolation...
 
I did a small comparison of headphones I own here in case you are interested: http://www.head-fi.org/t/703524/the-battle-of-the-portables-a-review-of-my-headphones-audio-technica-ath-es10-vs-esw9a-vs-denon-ah-d950-vs-ultrasone-edition-8-vs-beyerdynamic-dt770pro-32ohm-limited-edition#post_10362347
 
David Mahler has even mentioned before that he liked his Denon AH-D950s better than his ED8's and you can see how many headphones he has http://www.head-fi.org/u/56963/davidmahler
 
Anyway, I think the Beyer DT770s are way more transparent, have a greater soundstage, are less coloroued, more fun, have better bass, and all at $200 vs. $1600, sure the build quality is not the same but they are both handmade in Germany. The only thing you're paying for is uniqueness, and good isolation in a portable with the Edition 8 although you are always afraid of it getting scratched and it draws too much attention, etc... The ED8 was my biggest dissapointment in a purchase yet, although some people like it, I think I would prefer the Signature series or perhaps a modified T5P in the future...

 
But that's precisely my point. Audio Technica had a good chance to turn the ES10 into a headphone that could take on the ED8.
 
And they decided not to.

Yes but to take on the ED8 they would have needed a different housing, better materials, more use of metals and not plastics... They would have had to have been circumaural and not supraural, essentially they would have had to have a completely different headphone... Also these retailed for $600 new so less than half the price of the ED8 and marketed for totally different audiences. The ED8 are more marketed towards wealthy middle-aged people where as the ES10 are more for middle-class youth. So then the ES10 is more akin to taking on the Signature DJ's if anything but still that costs twice as much and is circumaul, etc...

 

[dallan]

Thanks for taking the time to respond with your opinion. I understand if you think that the Ed8 was your biggest disappointment.  At one point i thought the ES10 was mine. I like the SigPros too, just got them about a month ago. I was surprised at the huge meet i was at the weekend before last, every person who listened to both my SigPro and the Ed8 thought that the Ed8 took it hands down because i think it is close.  The big problem with the Sig Pro for me compared to the Ed8 is comfort.  To me the SIgpro sounds more balanced but the Ed8 sounds more clear, transparent  (and hifi?). I do agree that with the Ed8 the mid bass is toned down in favor of the sub, but that doesn't take away from their sound, it is just how they are voiced.
 
As far as David Mahler goes, yes i have read his comments over the years, i don't always agree with him but at least he spends the time to give his opinion and i respect that. I have a lot of headphones and have been to many meets, listening and comparing too over many years. I stand by my earlier statement and i have had the ED8 and ES10 at several meets and never, not one single time has anyone thought that there they were in the same class.
 
I am glad you like your ES10s and I used mine about every other time back and forth between the ed8. Now with the SigPro the es10s haven't been used once, they are just to muddy and have a complete lack of detail or depth (and sense of instrument separation) compared to the other two. They sound like a headphone that costs sub $500. like they are and the Ed8 one that costs above a thousand.  The ES10s are very light and easy though and i assume the will be good at the beach over the summer with my old dap HM801 leaving the CLAS/Pico Power set up, the Fostex HP-P1 and the AK120 at home where they are safe.
 
Edit-Don't get me wrong either, i do like the ES10s or they would be sold and i used them a lot until recently.  My actual worst audio buy was may ciem but i still have the opportunity to even use them from time to time now.

 

[baronkatz]

  Thanks for taking the time to respond with your opinion. I understand if you think that the Ed8 was your biggest disappointment.  At one point i thought the ES10 was mine. I like the SigPros too, just got them about a month ago. I was surprised at the huge meet i was at the weekend before last, every person who listened to both my SigPro and the Ed8 thought that the Ed8 took it hands down because i think it is close.  The big problem with the Sig Pro for me compared to the Ed8 is comfort.  To me the SIgpro sounds more balanced but the Ed8 sounds more clear, transparent  (and hifi?). I do agree that with the Ed8 the mid bass is toned down in favor of the sub, but that doesn't take away from their sound, it is just how they are voiced.
 
As far as David Mahler goes, yes i have read his comments over the years, i don't always agree with him but at least he spends the time to give his opinion and i respect that. I have a lot of headphones and have been to many meets, listening and comparing too over many years. I stand by my earlier statement and i have had the ED8 and ES10 at several meets and never, not one single time has anyone thought that there they were in the same class.
 
I am glad you like your ES10s and I used mine about every other time back and forth between the ed8. Now with the SigPro the es10s haven't been used once, they are just to muddy and have a complete lack of detail or depth (and sense of instrument separation) compared to the other two. They sound like a headphone that costs sub $500. like they are and the Ed8 one that costs above a thousand.  The ES10s are very light and easy though and i assume the will be good at the beach over the summer with my old dap HM801 leaving the CLAS/Pico Power set up, the Fostex HP-P1 and the AK120 at home where they are safe.
 
Edit-Don't get me wrong either, i do like the ES10s or they would be sold and i used them a lot until recently.  My actual worst audio buy was may ciem but i still have the opportunity to even use them from time to time now.

I think evertyones ears have different tastes and I also mentioned that for different musical tastes the headphones are different. I am very sensitive to high frequencies, and this (coupled with lack of bass) made both the ED8 and T70P (as well as the T770Pro) somewhat less enjoyeable for me. Even the W1000 and W1000X are too bright for me, this is the reason I like the ES10, they manage to be good for EDM without being too bright... It might lack some of the transparency you describe, but that is because the high end is a bit toned down. So I need a headphone that's not bright and still has transpancy, soundstage, etc...
 
Is the Sig Pro a lot less bright than the ED8? If so it might be a good replacement. I quite liked the T5P because it was dark compared to the other headphones and is one of the most comfortable headphones (a lot more comfy than the ED8). How does the bass in the Sig Pro compare to the ES10 is there more of it or less? Also, I am debating between the Sig Pro and Sig DJ... Drew and many others have stated that the Sig DJ is a better overall headphone for less AND it has way more bass, and sparkly highs so better for EDM, but I fear that it might be too bright as well? I hear almost a ringing that's probably in the 10-20KHZ or higher range and it's constant on the ED8, T70P, T770Pro and a few others I have heard...

 

[dallan]

I haven't done head to head with the sig pros and es10, one right after another for a while. They are more balanced than the ed8 and have more mid bass, and less high end emphasis. They do share the same ultrasone house sound though. From what you say it sounds to me like the dj pro would fit u better. I have not heard them though so I am in the dark on it except for what has been written out here.