[Currawong]

Drosera: I gather AES/EBU is for long cable runs where the balanced format helps, and, I read, has a lot of jitter.

 

[Drosera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Drosera: I gather AES/EBU is for long cable runs where the balanced format helps, and, I read, has a lot of jitter.

Ah thanks, there's something thrustworthy about the looks of a balanced connector, but I guess looks aren't everything.

 

[Tachikoma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Drosera: I gather AES/EBU is for long cable runs where the balanced format helps, and, I read, has a lot of jitter.

"A lot of jitter"? Where'd you read that? It should be no worse than any coax connection, and should in fact be better because its 110 ohm all the way and eliminates impedance mismatches.

Quote:

I wonder why Kingwa didn't include an AES/EBU connection on the Reference One. Incompatibility with the DSP-1 perhaps?

AFAIK AES/EBU just uses a different connector, not a completely different format.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tachikoma /img/forum/go_quote.gif "A lot of jitter"? Where'd you read that? It should be no worse than any coax connection, and should in fact be better because its 110 ohm all the way and eliminates impedance mismatches. AFAIK AES/EBU just uses a different connector, not a completely different format.

I asked Kingwa about the connections on the Ref 1, including AES/EBU, and he has this to say:

Quote:

In fact, XLR input bad than coaxial input on technology, the jitter big than BNC input 10X times.

I can only imagine he's measured the jitter with the various connections and come to this conclusion as a result.

 

[gregdee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drosera /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have seen this I suppose. It gives at least some idea of what the DSP does. Although admittedly I think a more elaborate manual is called for.

hi guys
I just reading your impressions and I am pretty interested to buy this dac ,as a price looks to be real present.However just relized now at this point of discussion , there is possibility to switch requested sampling rate.
I set it clear at once ,after all my experience I am clearly sure that non oversampling sounds the best to my ears.My current custom dac is built on tda 1541 chip then,and it replaced all stuff I tried before (including dcs and AN4 sign , to just mention the lasts).Well I do not miss dcs at all ,but I miss AN bass definition ,which my current set up does not posses.That is why I am reading your impressions carefully .Seems to be this box have a chance to impress me in this area.Please let me know then mates ,what is sampling setting in your devices during your listening sessions.
I beg it it's not oversampled ,what means I will be glad to order my one.

In this point thanks to Curra ,whos impressions about Nakamichi Dragon Dac and initial information about possible replacement started it all.
I also have listened this rare DAC before and I liked it ,but obviously it is hard to get ,and with main voltage 230 even does not exist.

hope to hear you soon
keep going with your final confesion after burning

 

[BeerCan]

I have been watching this thread also because I want one

I think 1X oversampling = non oversampled . . . at least if my math is correct

For me it is different, I like oversampling but do not hear or see the need for up sampling.

 

[gregdee]

chees mate

you are completely right about .
In this case 1x = 0

OS works for resolution ,more up gives more res.
but lacks musicality ,that's why I finally set my system
on the oldest chip ever (except 1540 which is 14bit) available
and it still do the best for me .

thanks for your comment

 

[gregdee]

Anyway ,if we are still about goods from China and upsampling rates.
I just compared opera's droplet cdps.
Mini one which has NO dac on the board and 5.0 which is sampling switchable one.
As far as I preferred smaller one which is also chipper ,I must say that the 5.0 is actually only one upsampled cdp I could really live with if compared to other I 've heard.
Because of specific abilities of Komenko's triodes which are employed on the output stage there is really special compromise achieved finally ,which might be kind of balance
between precision of US signal and valve coherency ,which in this case do really good job

 

[Pricklely Peete]

My impressions are based on the base (stock setting) of 8X oversampling, PLL on, dither off, 24 bit. It should be listed somewhere in a previous post of mine in this thread. I will try NOS mode once I'm confident the DAC is fully matured and I have a really good handle on what it can do (and can't do).

Actual resolution of the unit is supposed to be 26 bit in full balanced mode (using all 8 PCM1704UK chips). In theory at least.

Thus far what I can say is this dac is neutral, detailed and musical throughout the entire audible frequency range with incredible bass response and control....best bass I've ever heard actually and I have subs that hit a true 22 hz. Timbre and textural nuance all correct on difficult instruments like Piano and Strings, flute , brass etc...imaging and space are superb. It sounds more like great analog than great digital !
Mine is still evolving as it gains hours...refinements to every conceivable area but I'm impressed with it to sat the least. More to come obviously once enough time has passed.


Peete.

 

[gregdee]

Hi Peete
txs for your answer
that's exactly set of informations I am looking for .
as you read in my last post I do not saying oversampling is bad ,but I don't like digitalizing effect it often brings.Any way I just got answer from Kigwa as well,which confirmed my misunderstanding ,when his dac is not upsampling ,but oversampling what really makes a difference.He was so kind also to explain how it sounds for his ears if compared to xx41,xx43 chips I am familiar with .And finally I got very similiar description of analog like sound from you ,which is good .I think I will order this dac as well after all.
Specially your comments about bass makes me sure.My spkrs are able to reach 28 hz w/o loss and 22hz with -3db.They are horn based custom build cabinets with altec416 paper bass .I am specially glad your comment due to seems we likes similiar music ,classical and jazz ,and share same opinion there is no real piano sound w/o bass basement .This is why I am not happy to the end with my current dac ,which is great for whole the rest range except lowest bass section.KEEP GOING WITH YOUR COMMENTS ,please.Hope that soon you will be tempted enough to down oversampling settings on your board ,and try to listen this way.I am pretty sure that may be an real advantage ,specially in holography area ,and it finally could not affect a bass regions as Kingwa suggested by his own.Waiting you follow impressions asap.

txs
greg

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregdee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi Peete txs for your answer that's exactly set of informations I am looking for . as you read in my last post I do not saying oversampling is bad ,but I don't like digitalizing effect it often brings.Any way I just got answer from Kigwa as well,which confirmed my misunderstanding ,when his dac is not upsampling ,but oversampling what really makes a difference.He was so kind also to explain how it sounds for his ears if compared to xx41,xx43 chips I am familiar with .And finally I got very similiar description of analog like sound from you ,which is good .I think I will order this dac as well after all. Specially your comments about bass makes me sure.My spkrs are able to reach 28 hz w/o loss and 22hz with -3db.They are horn based custom build cabinets with altec416 paper bass .I am specially glad your comment due to seems we likes similiar music ,classical and jazz ,and share same opinion there is no real piano sound w/o bass basement .This is why I am not happy to the end with my current dac ,which is great for whole the rest range except lowest bass section.KEEP GOING WITH YOUR COMMENTS ,please.Hope that soon you will be tempted enough to down oversampling settings on your board ,and try to listen this way.I am pretty sure that may be an real advantage ,specially in holography area ,and it finally could not affect a bass regions as Kingwa suggested by his own.Waiting you follow impressions asap. txs greg

Hi Greg,

Your posts piqued my curiosity with 1X or NOS mode so I tried it last night for a few CD's and must say it's impressive in this configuration as well. I liked what I heard but I need to give it some more time to comment much further on it.

One thing is for sure this DAC is versatile as it is articulate.

Peete.

 

[bobsmith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your posts piqued my curiosity with 1X or NOS mode so I tried it last night for a few CD's and must say it's impressive in this configuration as well.

I had a feeling I might like the NOS mode as well, which was why Kingwa customized mine with a switch on the back so I could toggle NOS mode without opening up the unit. Haven't really played with it much yet, but plan to soon...

 

[Pricklely Peete]

How you doing with your RE1 Bob ? Any thoughts out of the gate (after a few days actually

) ?

Peete.

 

[bobsmith]

Well, I will caveat by saying that this is my first standalone DAC, so I have really very little to compare it to in terms of sound quality. This makes it difficult for me to give any particularly helpful impressions on that front. So I will start with my non-sound related thoughts, and then move up to sound at the end.

Arrival

My unit took just over 2 weeks from time of placing my order to showing up at my door, which was exactly when promised by Kingwa. When it arrived, it came in an extremely well packed box with lots of foam, and there was no external damage. There was no evidence that customs or anyone else had opened the package and there was no security clearance sticker.

The unit itself was wrapped in multiple layers of plastic and tape. It was fairly challenging to get it all unwrapped, which I considered a pretty good sign. Once out of the box and wrapping, the unit looked perfect. There were no dings or any kind of blemishes on the unit. From the outside it looked and felt very solid and attractive. And HUGE and HEAVY.

Internals

The first thing I wanted to do after getting it out of the box was to open the Ref1 up. More than anything else, what sold me on the Ref1 was the pictures on Kingwa's site, which I found myself looking at repeatedly. Yes, I know I am a freak, and my wife made lots of fun of me for looking at circuit board pr0n.

In any case, my quest to open it up was immediately hindered when I found out that apparently none of my allen wrenches would fit the bolts on the unit. Must be a metric thing or something. A little digging through my toolbox and I found something that fit close enough to get the bolts out. I was blown away by the internals. As nice as the pics are on the website, they do not do justice to the actual build quality. I looked closely at the work and it was beautiful with no flaws that I could detect. After poking around a bit, I reassembled the chassis to go test it out.

Testing

I took the thing upstairs to plug it into my setup. Did I mention how heavy the thing is? I nearly killed myself (and more importantly the Ref1) trying to open the baby gate at the top of the stairs while holding the unit. That said, given the solidity of the unit, it probably would have been in far better shape if we fell than I would have been. But I digress...

I got it all plugged into my X-Prelude using the nice supplied RCA->BNC cable, and into my Woo2 using a craptastic set of radioshack RCA cables (The RCA cables are certainly something I want to upgrade soon). Given the large distance between the left and right RCA outputs, I had to pull the cable apart first, and I guess this is something I will need to consider when upgrading the cable. For all of my testing, I left my custom NOS switch in the up position, which is the oversampling mode.

After plugging it in and setting the X-Prelude to output to the digital coax output, I switched the whole thing on and played some 320kbps mp3s. The first thing that surprised me was how loud it was. Obviously the line level from the Ref1 is much higher than what was being output from the X-Prelude analog out, so I had to turn the Woo2 way down to get to a reasonable volume level.

The next thing I noticed was how much deeper and more dynamic the bass was than what I had been getting out of the X-Prelude. I honestly did not previously realize that my headphones were capable of giving as much kick as they do with the Ref1. Based on Pete's comments, it looks like I can expect improvement in the bass department as it burns it, which I have difficulty imagining. I was also struck by the clarity of the sound overall. I particularly enjoyed listening to anything with good female vocals. I have not yet had a chance to listen to good classical recordings, but I imagine they will sound great.

Overall, I feel that the sound is a massive improvement over the X-Prelude (which it should be, and is not suprising). More importantly, I feel that the sound improvement was much more significant than when I went from my cheapo receiver to the Woo2, which was itself a very major upgrade. I have also found myself being "drawn" to the system now, and wanting to just listen to it every chance I get (which unfortunately, is far less often than I would like). That said, my caveat is that you should take all of my sound comments with a grain of salt, given that I have such limited DAC experience to draw on.

Initial Conclusion: At this time, I could not be happier with my purchase of the Ref1. I am very much looking forward to how it develops over the next few weeks.

 

[punk_guy182]

Thank god, you are not using your X-Fi anymore as DAC. I had Auzentech X-Fi prelude before and I hated it!
I now output bitperfect digital audio via TOSlink from my motherboard.
Regarding soundcards, my opinion is they are worthless if your motherboard outputs bitperfect audio and they mostly all do that now.
Also, I would get rid of lossy files and switch to lossless material like .FLAC, PCM, etc...
You can find 16bits/44kHz and 24bits/96kHz downloads on the net.